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SIRIUS Country Today's country music, country gold, and the many other flavors of Nashville.

 
 
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:39 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil53188
I would define country at whatever time to be what is on the Billboard Top Country Singles chart.
I see.

By your logic, if there's a song that's clearly rock n roll, but is popular enough that it becomes a crossover hit on the country charts--the fact that it appeared on the country chart makes it country?!

Yeah, right.

Gee, what about a lot of Elvis's early stuff, which often went way up the pop/rock chart, the R&B chart--as well as the country chart?

50's Black R&B and country the same thing?! By your logic, it must be, because a number of Elvis's songs hit both charts in the 50's.

Sorry, but you clearly don't know the difference between pop and traditional country. Eddie Rabbitt and Crystal Gayle are pop singers that modern Nashville has passed off on people who don't know what real country is.
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:03 PM   #32
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I absolutely, 100%, with no reservation or qualification agree with you. Phil, you did a fantastic job of illustrating your point so that only the most anal retentive, argumentative, pseudointellectual tool-head could think of disagreement.
Well, the post immediately above proves there's at least one out there.
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:11 PM   #33
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"They take artists that had 20 to 50 top ten hit singles over the years and play the same damn 7 or 8 over and over and over and over again."

7 or 8?!

Judging by the list YOU provided, they played THIRTEEN Eddie Rabbitt songs; ELEVEN Crystal Gayle songs; TWENTY FOUR Alabama songs; and NINETEEN Ronnie Milsap songs--in the month of October ALONE.

So it's obvious you were intentionally misrepresenting the true number of songs that were played by those artists, when you stated "7 or 8".

As usual, Sirius is damned if they do, damned if they don't.

If they would have played forty or fifty songs each by Rabbitt, Alabama and Milsap in the same month--there would be a lot of people screaming that "Sirius isn't playing a broad enough variety of artists, they're playing way too many songs by the same few performers".

Since they didn't play forty or fifty, of course the other group of complainers believes that they're not playing ENOUGH songs by those same artists.

Sirius is a satellite radio service, not a programmable iPod. They can't be all things to all people. They can't please everybody. You can talk to six different subscribers, and you'll get six different opinions of how certain channels should be programmed. Sirius won't be able to satisfy more than one of them.

If TWENTY FOUR songs by Alabama in the month of October alone, isn't enough Alabama for some people around here--I strenuously suggest they invest in an MP3 player and Yahoo music--or go out and buy an Alabama CD box set.
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:18 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
(Currently I am off of modern play music until the supermodels and rockstar wannabe refugees go somewhere else.)
Yeah, and "performers" like Crystal Gayle and Eddie Rabbitt were leading the pack of poseurs you describe above--twenty years ago!

You said essentially one of the same things I've been saying in this thread.
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:35 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
The Roadhouse music list was obviously developed months or years ago, then delivered into the hands of a non-Country-Music-lover.
I pretty much agree with you there, also.

Only a "non-Country-Music-lover" could think that Eddie Rabbitt and Crystal Gayle are actually country performers, who deserve to have their songs played on Roadhouse.

If Roadhouse wants to play real country, they need to take Rabbitt and Gayle songs completely off the channel, and keep them on the pop streams where they belong.
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAB
There is a ton of Country music missing from SIRIUS and anyone that believes otherwise really don't have a clue about country music.
Actually, I agree with you. Does that mean you don't have a clue?

As is frequently the case, you weren't able to intellectually comprehend the actual gist of my argument.

You and Phil think that the way to "improve" Sirius's country offerings is to play more pop and country-pop by poseurs like Rabbitt and Gayle.

I think the way to improve it is to play more of the true, traditional country of the fifties and sixties, with a bit of forties and seventies thrown in--Merle Haggard, Johnny Cash, Buck Owens, George Jones, Ernest Tubb, Hank Williams, Webb Pierce, Tammy Wynette, Loretta Lynn, Kitty Wells, Roy Acuff, Hank Thompson etc.

I have NEVER stated that Sirius's country offerings don't need some improvement. In fact, right here at SBS I have admitted that XM has a small edge in the country programming department, primarily because of Hank's Place, which plays more of the true, traditional country I mentioned above.
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:33 AM   #37
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RMan,

You seem to have a problem with Eddie Rabbit and Crystal Gale. Every post you made on page 3 of this thread mentions them both. It's redundant and pedantic, and it does nothing to further your point (if you actually have one, other than being disagreeable).

Could you please boil it down and state your position succintly? And without reference to Eddie Rabbit and Crystal Gale, if you can.

I will do so myself: a lot of the songs that I enjoyed listening to, and were hits, over the last 30+ years get no play. I understand that a finite playlist is the reality, but it seems that little growth is occuring.
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:00 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renaissance Man
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAB
There is a ton of Country music missing from SIRIUS and anyone that believes otherwise really don't have a clue about country music.
Actually, I agree with you. Does that mean you don't have a clue?

As is frequently the case, you weren't able to intellectually comprehend the actual gist of my argument.

You and Phil think that the way to "improve" Sirius's country offerings is to play more pop and country-pop by poseurs like Rabbitt and Gayle.

I think the way to improve it is to play more of the true, traditional country of the fifties and sixties, with a bit of forties and seventies thrown in--Merle Haggard, Johnny Cash, Buck Owens, George Jones, Ernest Tubb, Hank Williams, Webb Pierce, Tammy Wynette, Loretta Lynn, Kitty Wells, Roy Acuff, Hank Thompson etc.

I have NEVER stated that Sirius's country offerings don't need some improvement. In fact, right here at SBS I have admitted that XM has a small edge in the country programming department, primarily because of Hank's Place, which plays more of the true, traditional country I mentioned above.
RMan, I'd take Johnny Cash off of this list - he wasn't any more of a country artist than I am. The fact that he was marketed "country" doesn't mean he was, musically. He did do some songs country-style, but so did Dylan. IMO, Cash was much more "folk" than country.

For better or worse, both Rabbitt & Gayle were marketed country & they sold by the ton to a country fan base. From a purist's standpoint, I could see where that would bug someone. But I'd be careful where I'd draw my lines on what is acceptable.

Anyway - sorry to interrupt. I felt like nitpicking & your thread seemed like a good place to do it
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:55 AM   #39
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For better or worse, both Rabbitt & Gayle were marketed country & they sold by the ton to a country fan base. From a purist's standpoint, I could see where that would bug someone. But I'd be careful where I'd draw my lines on what is acceptable.
You're right, it is what it is. Country music has never really seemed to recover from its late 70s/early 80s urbanization. Whether I like ito or you like it or anyone else likes it, country music in recent decades has sounded a lot different than it did before that. And it's not just Crystal Gayle and Eddie Rabbitt. Artists like Alabama, Garth Brooks, Reba McIntire, and others have instilled a lot of pop sensibility into their music quite frequently. But that's what's playing on country stations, that's what people are listening to, so that's what needs to be represented on the channels that are indicative of the era. I'm all for a pre-80s and post-80s country distinction on Sirius, or a Traditional vs. Modern breakout, but until that happens, they should play everything that was notable in the period represented.
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Old 11-16-2005, 01:50 PM   #40
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I don't think it was neccessarily urbanization that caused the influence of pop on Country music. Admittedly, I was very young in the 70s, but, as I recall, there was an avant garde movement going on in pop music. Purple Haze was competing with Sugar, Sugar. Folk was competing with Funk. Traditional Rock was cast loose. Country allowed some of it a home.

I recall quite a bit of anger, too. Charley Rich, presenting the Country Artist of the Year Award burned the card after he read it, then explained that John Denver had won.

Artists changed, too. We went from a boozing, womanizing Hank Williams to Willie Nelson, who preferred pot with his womanizing. Christian and family values became declasse. Singers who used to routinely break into gospel songs starting shunning them.

And look how many times the media has changed. From 78 to 45 to 33 RPM. From phonographs to 8-tracks to cassettes to CD and DVD and MP3 and iPods. Video music channels. Cable and satellite TV. And, lest we forget, satellite radio.

So, while I suspect that urbanization did have some effect on Country music, I think there were a lot of other reasons that the doors were opened for non-traditional singers and songs. Which is why, the main reason why, I like listening to Classic Country. And why I would like more diversity in the songs they play on Roadhouse.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:36 PM   #41
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There's certainly truth there. From my perspective, the game seemed to change once Urban Cowboy hit the theaters, and country music entered the pop culture realm.

That said, Crystal Gayle and similar were making poppish-sounding country songs prior to that, so there were undoubtedly other influences at work.

At any rate, if it was on the country charts for an era, it belongs on the satellite station representing country for that era, unless the theme specifically excludes it (wouldn't expect to hear Crystal on Outlaw Country).
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:42 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prymel
There's certainly truth there. From my perspective, the game seemed to change once Urban Cowboy hit the theaters, and country music entered the pop culture realm.
We're going back quite a ways, here. I was in high school when Urban Cowboy was in the theaters. Looking for Love caused quite a controversy, back then. John Travolta proved he could act, just not very well. The movie spurred a trend and everybody in California started wearing Western fashion.

BTW, if you watch that movie, you might notice that Bonnie Raitt is one of the acts singing at Gilley's.
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Old 11-16-2005, 07:09 PM   #43
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Renaissance Man:

Classic country (and the Prime Country / Roadhouse streams) needs to represent all of the music of the era. By your standard, you would never play Marty Robbins or Sonny James or even Conway Twitty. "El Paso" and "A White Sport Coat" were huge pop hits, but nobody would claim "El Paso" shouldn't be played on classic country. "Young Love" was a huge pop hit. "It's Only Make Believe" never even charted originally country, and "Hello Darlin'" was a crossover hit as well. Let's go ahead and throw out Lynn Anderson too. "Rose Garden" was a huge crossover hit and could definitely be described as much AC as at the time as it is country. "The Happiest Girl In The Whole USA" was a top 10 pop hit, so classic country shouldn't play Donna Fargo? "Harper Valley PTA" was a number one pop hit in the late 60s. That would be vintage classic country to me. In the mid 70's, Olivia Newton-John had just as much a place on country radio as did Johnny Cash, while at the same time she was just as much of a pop staple as Elton John or Barry Manilow. How about Glen Campbell? "Galveston" and "Wichita Lineman" could be described as pop-based country.

So you would not play Glen Campbell, Anne Murray, Donna Fargo, Lynn Anderson, Olivia Newton-John? How about Kenny Rogers, Juice Newton, or Restless Heart? If you don't think they should have a place on a classic country stream, where would you put them? Only on StarLite? That doesn't make much sense to me being there were just as big a part of country radio, if not bigger, than the Johnny Paychecks and Loretta Lynns.

Especially through the 90s and the "Achy Breaky Heart" era, I had the same feelings that that really isn't true country music, so I understand where you're coming from, but that music sold a lot of records and got a lot of airtime, so if you are covering music from the country genre in that era, you have to include Billy Ray Cyrus, Blackhawk, and Shania Twain just as much as you include the more traditional artists from the 90s like Tracy Lawrence, Sammy Kershaw, and George Strait.

Same is true with the music now. Top 40 country represents very pop / AC sounding artists like Lonestar, Keith Urban, Shania Twain, and Sugarland, but also very traditional artists like George Strait and Brad Paisley. Look at how much one artist even can have traditional and pop sounding country music. Lee Ann Womack's "I Hope You Dance" and "I May Hate Myself In The Morning" are as opposite as possible.

One more rip with the Roadhouse. It is so annoying when they play songs that aren't the original version. like Tanya Tucker's "San Antonio Stroll" and "Texas When I Die" or T. Graham Brown's "I Tell It Like It Used To Be". They play re-recorded versions that aren't the original and I find it annoying.

Overall, Renaissance Man, my rip with Roadhouse is that it seems as if whoever the program director is took $1000, went to country CD section at Best Buy, and used their budget to buy CDs to play on the Roadhouse, and that is the extent of their music collection. It's like they bought John Conlee and Don Williams' "20 Greatest Hits" CDs, John Anderson's "Greatest Hits", Tammy Wynette's "The Anniversary Collection: Greatest Hits", Razzy Bailey's "Anothology", Bellamy Brothers "Greatest Hits Vol 1" and Vol 2, "The Essential Ronnie Milsap" and go on until you name about 80 CDs, and that is it. There was not a lot of thought or depth put into the playlist and it was clearly not done up (or maintained) by someone who truly loves all that country music had to offer from the 50s through the 80s.
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Old 11-16-2005, 07:15 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
You seem to have a problem with Eddie Rabbit and Crystal Gale. Every post you made on page 3 of this thread mentions them both. It's redundant and pedantic, and it does nothing to further your point (if you actually have one, other than being disagreeable). Could you please boil it down and state your position succintly? And without reference to Eddie Rabbit and Crystal Gale, if you can. I will do so myself: a lot of the songs that I enjoyed listening to, and were hits, over the last 30+ years get no play. I understand that a finite playlist is the reality, but it seems that little growth is occuring.
CR: You're sounding like the "anal retentive", "pseudointellectual", "disagreeable" one in this thread--to use your own terminology. Be careful that you don't prove yourself to be more guilty of the very same things you attack others for.

Now cease with the insults, and let's get down to an intelligent discussion.

-------------------------------

First of all, I think I've made my position quite clear, as evidenced by my previous statement:

Quote:
Posted by Renaissance Man
I think the way to improve it is to play more of the true, traditional country of the fifties and sixties, with a bit of forties and seventies thrown in--Merle Haggard, Johnny Cash, Buck Owens, George Jones, Ernest Tubb, Hank Williams, Webb Pierce, Tammy Wynette, Loretta Lynn, Kitty Wells, Roy Acuff, Hank Thompson etc.
Playing MORE pop and country-pop (cp) like Alabama, Ronnie Milsap and several others that Phil listed isn't going to do squat to improve Sirius's county offerings. Sirius already plays a boatload of pop/cp on their country channels.

Phil's solution is to simply feed us more of the BS that has made Sirius's country offerings a bit weak to begin with.

XM's noticeably more traditional "Hank's Place" (HP) is the crown jewel of either service's country offerings. The Roadhouse should move in that direction, though they don't need to become a carbon copy of it. And Sirius definitely shouldn't copycat those lame channel promos that HP is so fond of.

I certainly feel that pop/cp fans like Phil should have one channel to call their own, but it shouldn't be the Roadhouse. And the pop/cp station should clearly be labeled as such, and not try to pass itself off as a "classic" or "traditional" country channel.
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Old 11-16-2005, 07:28 PM   #45
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Ramius and Prymel: Not trying to be argumentive, but the roots of Country's decline started much farther back than "Urban Cowboy".

The following article from Wikipedia sums it up quite nicely and succinctly:

Nashville sound

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

"The Nashville sound in country music arose during the 1950s in the United States. Chet Atkins, Owen Bradley and Bob Ferguson, who were producing records in Nashville, invented the form by stripping the honky tonk roughness from traditional country and adding jazzy production and pop song structures. Vocalist Patsy Cline and pianist Floyd Cramer were two of the most famous of the Nashville sound's original era.

In the early 1960s, the Nashville sound began to be challenged by the rival Bakersfield sound. Nashville's pop song structure became more pronounced, and it morphed into countrypolitan. Countrypolitan was aimed straight at mainstream markets, and it sold well throughout the later 1960s and 1970s. The Bakersfield sound and, later, outlaw country dominated country music among aficionados while countrypolitan reigned on the pop charts.

Upon being asked what the Nashville Sound was, Chet Atkins would reach his hand into his pocket, shake the loose change around, and say "That's what it is. It's the sound of money"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_sound
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