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SIRIUS Country Today's country music, country gold, and the many other flavors of Nashville.

 
 
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:36 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prymel
And it's not just Crystal Gayle and Eddie Rabbitt.
I never said it was just those two. I was merely using those two as an EXAMPLE, to get my point across. I don't have time every post to name off ten fricking different examples. Sheesh!

So quit misrepresenting what I say. Earlier in this very thread, I clearly stated the following:

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Posted by Renaissance Man
Virtually none of the ten artists you listed in your initial post are classified as "classic" (i.e. "traditional") country artists. The best description of their music would be "adult contemporary country-pop" (i.e. "phony country for those who don't know what real country is").
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Old 11-17-2005, 02:56 AM   #47
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hi,

here are some points to possibly think about.

1) sirius is a hits station, so most of the songs played will have charted.

2) "classic country" is really just an advertisement. all of us would probably place our own definition to it.

3) we probably all have our own definition of "what is country" and "what is not". however, if it placed on the country charts, then it could legitimately be played on a country station, no matter how rock or pop some of us might consider the song. for example, just about all the country music today sounds like hard rock and roll, to me. but that is because i think of country as banjos, fiddles, mandolins and melodies - which is what i also think of as "traditional" country music. sirius plays almost none of what i consider "traditional" - at least of a year ago, when i was listening. "traditional" country music also has the somewhat irritating steel guitar.

4) i am not a huge johnny cash fan, but he is the number 3 all-time charted country artist, so one would have to consider him to be a country artist.
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Old 11-17-2005, 05:28 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by gymeejet
i am not a huge johnny cash fan, but he is the number 3 all-time charted country artist, so one would have to consider him to be a country artist.
I definitely agree. The vast majority of Cash's music is properly classified as outlaw country, especially his classic years in the sixties to mid-seventies.

I don't see how any serious fan of either country or folk, could classify songs like "Folsom Prison Blues", "I Walk the Line", "Orange Blossom Special" or "Don't Take Your Guns to Town"---as folk songs. They were very clearly country songs.

He did some rockabilly in his early days in the fifties, but after that it was almost all country.
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Old 11-17-2005, 08:52 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renaissance Man
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i am not a huge johnny cash fan, but he is the number 3 all-time charted country artist, so one would have to consider him to be a country artist.
I definitely agree. The vast majority of Cash's music is properly classified as outlaw country, especially his classic years in the sixties to mid-seventies.

I don't see how any serious fan of either country or folk, could classify songs like "Folsom Prison Blues", "I Walk the Line", "Orange Blossom Special" or "Don't Take Your Guns to Town"---as folk songs. They were very clearly country songs.

He did some rockabilly in his early days in the fifties, but after that it was almost all country.
So you dismiss my definitions of country & folk, then go on to say that Cash is "properly classified as outlaw country"? Please give me the "proper" definitions of all forms of popular music, as I've obviously been wrong all of my 43 years on this earth.

Listen, this is all semantics & subjective opinions. I guess I should have phrased my opinion of Cash as: he's not just country - that's like saying Elvis is a rockbilly singer or Ray Charles is a blues singer: he is, but...... Cash is much more than that. And he certainly did many, many songs that would fit better into the traditional classification of "folk" than, say, gym's definition of "country" above. Just because record companies & radio programmers didn't know what to do with him & labelled all of Cash's music "country" ("after all, we have to put him somewhere, don't we?"), doesn't mean they were right. "I Walk The Line" doesn't really sound like any country music out at the time of release - it was country because that's how it was marketed.

As for "outlaw country", to me that's a catch-all term that doesn't really decribe a musical style. It's more about an attitude. Given that, you could certainly put Cash there. But hell, I could put Skynyrd there too & not be "wrong".

Oh, and it may be prudent to get to know me a little better before you dimiss how serious a fan I am of any genre.
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:23 AM   #50
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If TWENTY FOUR songs by Alabama in the month of October alone, isn't enough Alabama for some people around here--I strenuously suggest they invest in an MP3 player and Yahoo music--or go out and buy an Alabama CD box set.
As long as those twenty-four Alabama songs aren't being repeated excessively, I'm fine. Or as long as the failure to play more Alabama so they can repeat songs by other artists isn't a trend, I'm also fine.

But Alabama has 42 number one singles, approaching double the 24 songs being mentioned. Other popular country artists have #1 and Top Ten singles catalogs equally as vast. The '24' number may appear large taken in isolation, but when you consider how many songs lots of artists have to choose from, then the "largeness" of the '24' number is very misleading.

And for services like Sirius and XM, who are in the business of programming music and talk, why shouldn't, at a very minimum, all the popular songs of a particular artist be part of a station's playlist (assuming all the songs otherwise fit the genre of that station). Even if you exclude anything that could remotely be construed as obscure, Alabama has 42 mass appeal smash hits to select from, so why does Sirius need to stop at 24?
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:35 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renaissance Man
CR: You're sounding like the "anal retentive", "pseudointellectual", "disagreeable" one in this thread--to use your own terminology. Be careful that you don't prove yourself to be more guilty of the very same things you attack others for.

Now cease with the insults, and let's get down to an intelligent discussion.

-------------------------------

First of all, I think I've made my position quite clear, as evidenced by my previous statement:

Quote:
Posted by Renaissance Man
I think the way to improve it is to play more of the true, traditional country of the fifties and sixties, with a bit of forties and seventies thrown in--Merle Haggard, Johnny Cash, Buck Owens, George Jones, Ernest Tubb, Hank Williams, Webb Pierce, Tammy Wynette, Loretta Lynn, Kitty Wells, Roy Acuff, Hank Thompson etc.
Playing MORE pop and country-pop (cp) like Alabama, Ronnie Milsap and several others that Phil listed isn't going to do squat to improve Sirius's county offerings. Sirius already plays a boatload of pop/cp on their country channels.

Phil's solution is to simply feed us more of the BS that has made Sirius's country offerings a bit weak to begin with.

XM's noticeably more traditional "Hank's Place" (HP) is the crown jewel of either service's country offerings. The Roadhouse should move in that direction, though they don't need to become a carbon copy of it. And Sirius definitely shouldn't copycat those lame channel promos that HP is so fond of.

I certainly feel that pop/cp fans like Phil should have one channel to call their own, but it shouldn't be the Roadhouse. And the pop/cp station should clearly be labeled as such, and not try to pass itself off as a "classic" or "traditional" country channel.
I'm not too worried about the opinion of anyone who's read your posts on this thread. It's fairly obvious how strident and argumentative your postings are; saying I'm attacking you by pointing out your specious tactics then using a previous post out of context against me proves it. (You are really in love with that 'Quote' button, aren't you?)

Succint is not in your nature, is it? Let me see if I can boil down your argument (please tell me if I am off-base): You don't like the Pop and Rock Country sounds, so they shouldn't be on the Sirius classic Country channel, even though, unlike XM, Sirius doesn't devote two channels, one for the traditional early classic Country sound, and one for the late 60s through 80s, and they should.

Fine. That is a reasonable position. I even agree. I enjoyed the ability to choose between Hank's Place and America when I subscribed to XM. I miss it now that I solely subscribe to Sirius. But that's not the point of the thread. (I won't quote the first post, either.) Why don't you start a new thread that states the position you've been taking. Then you can intelligently discuss it and remain on topic.

BTW, I did not state, imply, or agree with the notion that Urban Cowboy was the driving factor, or even a factor at all, in the modernization of the Country sound. I made a fairly lengthy post before that about some of what I perceived as factors. (Note that I'm not quoting it, simply referring to it.)

Congrats on restraining yourself from mentioning Eddie Rabbit and Crystal Gayle.
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Old 11-17-2005, 01:36 PM   #52
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Quote:
BTW, I did not state, imply, or agree with the notion that Urban Cowboy was the driving factor, or even a factor at all, in the modernization of the Country sound. I made a fairly lengthy post before that about some of what I perceived as factors. (Note that I'm not quoting it, simply referring to it.)
I will state that it was a huge driving factor, perhaps not in the creation of the sound, but certainly in bringing the sound flooding in to the mainstream. Maybe it wasn't the genesis of whatever one wants to call the pop-country sound, but Urban Cowboy introduced a new urban/suburban audience to country music that never would have embraced it in the past. Radio programmers and label execs saw a gold mine in this untapped audience, and reached for it. While there were plenty of poppish country sounds prior to that, there were also plenty of traditional sounds on the airwaves. But the 80's saw a steady diminishing of pure country in the mainstream, such that making anything that was too traditional sounding was usually a death knell for getting radio play.
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Old 11-17-2005, 04:49 PM   #53
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"I'm not too worried about the opinion of anyone who's read your posts on this thread. It's fairly obvious how strident and argumentative your postings are; saying I'm attacking you by pointing out your specious tactics then using a previous post out of context against me proves it. (You are really in love with that 'Quote' button, aren't you?)"

>>You're being quite strident and argumentive yourself, and most of your posts are primarily spent nit-picking about my form, rather than addressing my arguments. Not to mention you have used more inappropriate terminology than I.

>>Using the quote button is a courtesy to those I quote, so they can see what they posted earlier without having to scroll up or flip back to previous posts and pages. This saves them time, and allows them to respond more readily to my comments and arguments. It's just common courtesy and good sense, so I don't see what your problem with it is. You're just nit-picking.

"Succint is not in your nature, is it? Let me see if I can boil down your argument (please tell me if I am off-base): You don't like the Pop and Rock Country sounds, so they shouldn't be on the Sirius classic Country channel, even though, unlike XM, Sirius doesn't devote two channels, one for the traditional early classic Country sound, and one for the late 60s through 80s, and they should."

>>Some of my posts have been succinct, some have not. Not all of your posts have been succinct. But I have been noticeably more succint than Phil. I am responding to numerous posters in this thread, and if I have to elaborate a bit--get over it.

"Fine. That is a reasonable position. I even agree. I enjoyed the ability to choose between Hank's Place and America when I subscribed to XM. I miss it now that I solely subscribe to Sirius. But that's not the point of the thread. (I won't quote the first post, either.) Why don't you start a new thread that states the position you've been taking. Then you can intelligently discuss it and remain on topic."

>>I'm not off topic. This thread basically comes down to this--Phil is very dissatisfied with Sirius's country offerings, particularly the Roadhouse. I agree there's room for improvement, but disagree completely with Phil's solution--which I would essentially equate with "killing the patient to cure him" or "throwing out the baby with the bath water". So Phil and I are debating how the Roadhouse should be formatted, among other things, which is on topic.

"BTW, I did not state, imply, or agree with the notion that Urban Cowboy was the driving factor, or even a factor at all, in the modernization of the Country sound. I made a fairly lengthy post before that about some of what I perceived as factors. (Note that I'm not quoting it, simply referring to it.)"

>>Never said that you did, so please stop being overly defensive. It makes you appear insecure. My post about the Nashville sound was FYI--since you and Prymel were both discussing the possible roots of the problem, and neither of you even mentioned the obvious root--the Nashville Sound.

"Congrats on restraining yourself from mentioning Eddie Rabbit and Crystal Gayle."

>>They are two of the best known pop-country artists ever, and are well-known outside the country genre--so I was merely using them as examples. Get over it.

>>Most of your posts consist primarily of nit-picking about my form, rather than addressing my actual arguments and comments. So you need to heed your own advice about staying on topic. Get over your personal dislike for me, and debate the arguments, rather than acting like a close relative of the "Internet Spelling Nazi".
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Old 11-17-2005, 06:21 PM   #54
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well, we all have different ideas on what we want to listen to. and we can all argue about how some channel can be made better.

but i dont think there is any hard and fast rules as far as what sirius considers classic. in fact, their classic is not even their oldest country music.

i have often said that i think their biggest omission is the first 3 decades of country music. to me, that is a gaping hole.

with regards to johnny cash, i'll grant you that he is not a typical country artist. in an earlier discussion, i found out that he was categorized in a small genre called "country-rockabilly" - which separated him from both the country and rock-and-roll artists of the day.

but if led zeppelin had been advertised as a country artist, they would have had no chart records on the country charts. johnny cash is 3rd all-time. of course, he was also big on the pop charts - 72 all-time as of 1990.

i am not sure why he would be thought of as a folk singer, though. his songs tell stories, but that is true of most older songs.

dylan was a folk singer, but none of his folk songs charted (by him).
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Old 11-17-2005, 06:38 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
with regards to johnny cash, i'll grant you that he is not a typical country artist. in an earlier discussion, i found out that he was categorized in a small genre called "country-rockabilly" - which separated him from both the country and rock-and-roll artists of the day.
I must seriously question your source, if they claim he was playing rockabilly in his classic years of the sixties to mid-seventies.

He played rockabilly briefly in the fifties, with the likes of Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis and Carl Perkins---at Sam Phillips' Sun Records.

But after the rockabilly boom died out at the end of the fifties, he moved to outlaw country.

Nobody can intelligently claim that songs like "I Walk the Line", "Don't Take Your Guns to Town", "Folsom Prison Blues" and "Orange Blossom Special"---are folk or rockabilly.

Cash's best-known hits from his classic era are clearly country, falling somewhere between the traditional sound of early Roy Acuff and the Nashville Sound.
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Old 11-17-2005, 06:51 PM   #56
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Actually, Cash had several hits in the fifties that were clearly country. In fact he was asked to join the Grand Ole Opry in the fifties.

Funny, but I don't remember the GOO inviting any folkies or rockabilly artists to join in the fifties.

They were very conservative then, to the point of banning the great Kitty Wells from singing her smash hit "God Didn't Make Honky Tonk Angels".

GOO fans would've booed Dylan or Gene Vincent off the stage in the fifties.
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:25 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renaissance Man
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
with regards to johnny cash, i'll grant you that he is not a typical country artist. in an earlier discussion, i found out that he was categorized in a small genre called "country-rockabilly" - which separated him from both the country and rock-and-roll artists of the day.
I must seriously question your source, if they claim he was playing rockabilly in his classic years of the sixties to mid-seventies.

He played rockabilly briefly in the fifties, with the likes of Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis and Carl Perkins---at Sam Phillips' Sun Records.

But after the rockabilly boom died out at the end of the fifties, he moved to outlaw country.

Nobody can intelligently claim that songs like "I Walk the Line", "Don't Take Your Guns to Town", "Folsom Prison Blues" and "Orange Blossom Special"---are folk or rockabilly.

Cash's best-known hits from his classic era are clearly country, falling somewhere between the traditional sound of early Roy Acuff and the Nashville Sound.
i dont disagree. just saying that he started out as something different than country or rock. perhaps that niche is what helped make him popular. certainly his voice was pretty limiting. LOL.
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:31 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Renaissance Man
GOO fans would've booed Dylan or Gene Vincent off the stage in the fifties.
in the fifties ? would they ever have been accepted ? i cant see how either of those 2 artists would be considered by the opry.
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:35 PM   #59
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i dont disagree. just saying that he started out as something different than country or rock. perhaps that niche is what helped make him popular. certainly his voice was pretty limiting. LOL.
No, his roots were in country. He listened to and played country as a young man growing up. He had hits that were clearly country even as early as the mid-fifties. Like many who had grown up on country, he tried to make the move to rockabilly, but that venture was short-lived---and he returned to his country roots.

Bill Monroe also had a "pretty limiting" voice. But that was one of the things that endeared them to many of their hardcore fans--those "sing from the gut" working-class voices.

Those two were no slick-sounding "Nashville Sound" pretty boys!
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:36 PM   #60
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btw, bear family has cash's complete recordings up to the late 60s (i think they left off right before man named sue).

4 box sets altogether, if i recall correctly - from i think 1954 to about 1969 - about 16 full-length cds, for anyone interested in him.

i own them all, but have not listened to all of them yet.
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