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Old 05-17-2008, 08:00 PM   #16
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Using a radio without a paid subscription is theft.

Care to cite some law to back that up?

If I call Sirius and cancel the subscription and they don't deactivate the radio there is no legal recourse for Sirius.
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Old 05-17-2008, 08:11 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by atlwxman View Post
If I call Sirius and cancel the subscription and they don't deactivate the radio there is no legal recourse for Sirius.
Agreed, the only way it would be theft is if you in some way circumvented their activation/deactivation system and to my knowledge that system has not been breached. The fact is that SIRIUS system doesn't turn these tuners off and that is not the fault of the subscriber who did their part by calling and canceling and/or suspending the service.

Now for some this could be an ethical question for others maybe not. But I am certainly not going to call someone a thief. But it is my belief that if you are listening to the service everyday, you should actually have a subscription. But that is my ethical dilemma and I won't put it on anyone else.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:41 AM   #18
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Yeah I just changed tuners last week, My old reciever still works and I can tune into any channel, I have on the other hand called about 5 times telling them my radio still works and that the esn needs to be tunred off, they claim it is and a couple times the reps even said sir your radio isn't working while clearly i am looking at the "deactivated" tuner on Howard100.....

Oh well their loss. I have told them I want to sell my old reciever and don't want the person using it to get away with free service.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:30 AM   #19
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In Canada you have the Radio Communication Act which makes it a criminal offense to illegally access encrypted cable or satellite signals. Individual offenders are liable to a fine of up to $10,000 for each day the offense is committed.

Still searching US laws but it's fair to say that RIAA and DRM laws could be used.

Added Comment: I guess using the word theft may be offensive to some - I'm not sure what you would call using a paid-for service without paying for it. That's the single point I'm focusing on. Not the fact that Sirius is still working to deactivate old tuners. The issue here is the lost revenue the company, advertisers, and record companies lose when someone uses the service for free.

I agree with you guys that it's an ethical choice for each person who owns one of these deactivated tuners and that the responsibility falls both on the former consumer and the company.
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:51 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by sirisuperfan View Post
In Canada you have the Radio Communication Act which makes it a criminal offense to illegally access encrypted cable or satellite signals. Individual offenders are liable to a fine of up to $10,000 for each day the offense is committed.

Still searching US laws but it's fair to say that RIAA and DRM laws could be used.
You continue to try to make this out to be an issue about the end users and you my friend are WRONG!

If I plug in a tuner and the service is there, that service is not encrypted, it is open and available. This means that if SIRIUS doesn't do its part to insure that tuners that don't have a subscription are turned off, that isn't the end users problem it is theirs.

The law you quoted in Canada doesn't apply either nor would it in the US. What that applies to is if you have a cable box or tuner that you've actually hacked to steal the service. No one is hacking or breaching SIRIUS system, they are simply not turning the tuners off. So again how does that mean someone is stealing? You never seem to comment on the fact that I and many, many others have called dozens of times to advise them that our old tuners are still activated and they either play off or make some stupid claim about they will be turned off eventually. Well 3 years later and I have one that still has service. But that is somehow my fault as the end user and so that makes me a thief?

Granted I do think anyone listening everyday should pay. But in terms of you calling them these listeners a thief. Rather one finds it offensive or not has no baring on this, because it simply isn't true. SIRIUS has to be responsible to turn off these tuners and THAT is where the buck stops, NOT with the end-user.
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:51 PM   #21
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It's really a simple matter of contract law.

Once I follow the steps to end the service as specified by Sirius, I am no longer bound to pay for the service.

Last edited by atlwxman; 05-21-2008 at 06:35 PM..
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:53 PM   #22
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It's really a simple matter of contract law.

Once I follow the steps to end the service as specified by Sirius, I am no longer under bound to pay for the service.
Exactly and if they never turn the tuner off that isn't on you, but them!
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Old 05-21-2008, 05:00 PM   #23
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The key term is illegally access encrypted cable or satellite signals.

If I go through the proper procedures to turn the subscription off, it's up to Sirius to deactivate the subscription. I've done what I've had to do.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:16 PM   #24
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Ditto
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:45 AM   #25
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How is it theft? It's not the person's fault sirius is a bit lax in shutting off deactivated units. I've got a junk starmate that hasn't been zapped. I use it up in my bedroom just because it works. Otherwise I'd bring my laptop or my stiletto upstairs and use it instead. I found out it works by accident. If someone deactivates it with the intent of seeing how long they can go without paying, that's one thing. I've upgraded my radios (sporster 4 -> S50-> SL100). I've passed down the older units to others with the intent of them activating them. When they hooked them up and said they worked, I said enjoy it while it lasts. It'll get zapped, and they'll call to subscribe.

Can't believe people actually care one way or the other. Unless people are complaining that their "free" sirius isn't working anymore, it's a non-issue. If Sirius really thought it was a huge issue, they would be more on top of it.

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I think it's great that Sirius is finding ways to shut down these units. Using a radio without a paid subscription is theft.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:35 AM   #26
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It's really a simple matter of contract law.

Once I follow the steps to end the service as specified by Sirius, I am no longer bound to pay for the service.
THAT makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:29 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirisuperfan View Post
In Canada you have the Radio Communication Act which makes it a criminal offense to illegally access encrypted cable or satellite signals. Individual offenders are liable to a fine of up to $10,000 for each day the offense is committed.

Still searching US laws but it's fair to say that RIAA and DRM laws could be used.

Added Comment: I guess using the word theft may be offensive to some - I'm not sure what you would call using a paid-for service without paying for it. That's the single point I'm focusing on. Not the fact that Sirius is still working to deactivate old tuners. The issue here is the lost revenue the company, advertisers, and record companies lose when someone uses the service for free.

I agree with you guys that it's an ethical choice for each person who owns one of these deactivated tuners and that the responsibility falls both on the former consumer and the company.
And what a silly law that is.

If a company sees fit to bombard your house with so many radio waves that you could potentially head to an electronics shop and rig up something to convert these signals into something usable - more power to you. That includes decrypting, etc. They put them there in your house without asking - you are welcome to record them and have at them.

It's when you start packaging kits to steal "sat signals" to others and making money on them that anyone actually cares.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:29 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirisuperfan View Post
Added Comment: I guess using the word theft may be offensive to some - I'm not sure what you would call using a paid-for service without paying for it. That's the single point I'm focusing on. Not the fact that Sirius is still working to deactivate old tuners. The issue here is the lost revenue the company, advertisers, and record companies lose when someone uses the service for free.
If I call to have my tuner deactivated, and Sirius doesn't do it, I don't see how I have done anything wrong. I fulfilled my obligation to tell them that I want to terminate the service on a radio, now it's up to them how they choose to deal with it.
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:19 AM   #29
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I already stand corrected but thank for your input:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirisuperfan View Post
THAT makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the clarification.
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And what a silly law that is.

If a company sees fit to bombard your house with so many radio waves that you could potentially head to an electronics shop and rig up something to convert these signals into something usable - more power to you. That includes decrypting, etc. They put them there in your house without asking - you are welcome to record them and have at them.

It's when you start packaging kits to steal "sat signals" to others and making money on them that anyone actually cares.
Quote:
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If I call to have my tuner deactivated, and Sirius doesn't do it, I don't see how I have done anything wrong. I fulfilled my obligation to tell them that I want to terminate the service on a radio, now it's up to them how they choose to deal with it.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:45 AM   #30
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It has been held in the past that knowingly using a service that you are not paying for is an issue. The most common example being that if the cable company accidentally gives you full cable instead of basic cable that you ordered, and you are watching the full cable anyway. It is typically not prosecuted.

I would imagine listenining to unsubscribed but active radios fall into the same zone.
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