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Old 11-26-2006, 10:11 PM   #1
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Default Illegal Forward Pass? Raiders robbed AGAIN...

Anyone see the Raiders/Chargers game today? Does that call make any sense at all? That wasn't a pass. And even if you could believe that, why wouldn't it go back to the line of scrimmage? I sense another correction to the rules at the Raider's expense...

I won't even get started on the two questionable catches that were never looked at...
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Old 11-26-2006, 11:21 PM   #2
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No, I didn't see the game though it was on in the LA area. Fortunately, the Bears-Patroits game was on so I watched that one....very entertaining....the Bears blew it imho......they could've & should've won this one. But back to the Raiders, they actually were competitive against the Chargers. I figured the Chargers would win, like, 48-3 or something. The Raiders lead through most of the game until the Chargers tied it and eventually went ahead for the victory.
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Old 11-26-2006, 11:37 PM   #3
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Yeah they went ahead, thanks to the refs. The Chargers receiver caught the ball, got up untouched and spiked the ball. The Raiders pounced on it, as did a Charger, because it was still a live ball. The refs stood around to try and figure out how they could keep it from being a turnover and decided that it was an "illegal forward pass". There was no intention of it being a pass, he was past the line of scrimmage, he had just caught a pass and was showboating. They spent ten minutes and 3-4 tries attempting to explain why they were giving him the ball back after he threw it away! Gave him a 5 yard penalty from where he spiked the ball but said it was still a first down.

If his own teammate had jumped on the ball would it have been a fumble forward? If the ball had happened to pop out of his hand in another direction, it wouldn't have been a forward pass and we would've gotten it? Could they find another loophole to screw the Raiders? it's getting to be ridiculous, if we don't beat ourselves, the refs get us...
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Old 11-27-2006, 12:27 AM   #4
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Yeah, I was watching at the time. That was a strange play!
I've never seen anything quite like it. The refs didn't seem to know what to do. The Raiders need a serious upgrade at QB, maybe Brady Quinn, in the 2007 draft?
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:01 AM   #5
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"If his own teammate had jumped on the ball would it have been a fumble forward? "

No. An intentional forward fumble is a five yard penalty from where the ball was fumbled. The rule is to keep the offense from intentionally rolling the ball downfield, like a forward lateral. Now if he had spun the ball behind him, it would of been a fumble that the Raiders could have recovered. It may suck, but that's the rule.
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Old 11-27-2006, 01:10 PM   #6
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As much as you might hate it, it was the correct call.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2676820

Odd, but correct, call brings confusion in S.D. game

SAN DIEGO -- A moment of celebration by San Diego receiver Vincent Jackson turned into 10 minutes of confusion in the fourth quarter of the Chargers game with the rival Oakland Raiders.

With the Chargers trailing 14-7 and facing fourth-and-2 from the Raiders 40, Jackson caught a 13-yard pass from Philip Rivers, rolled to the ground untouched, then stood up and spun the ball forward. Oakland's Fabian Washington jumped on the ball, believing it was a fumble, and setting off 10 minutes of confusion as the referees sorted it out.

Referee Mike Carey originally signaled Oakland's possession, but then the Chargers were flagged for illegal forward pass. Even with the 5-yard penalty for the illegal pass, the Chargers still had a first down, at the 32.

Four plays later, LaDainian Tomlinson threw a 19-yard touchdown pass to Antonio Gates to tie the game at 14.

While the call was questioned on the field, NFL Supervisor of Officials Mike Pereira confirmed to ESPN's Chris Mortensen that the call was correct -- and not without precedent.

It is illegal to intentionally fumble a ball forward and, by rule, an illegal forward fumble is an incomplete pass. That makes it a dead ball. A 5-yard penalty is then assessed from the spot.

Jackson spinning the ball forward when he was not down by contact constituted an intentional illegal forward fumble and thus an illegal forward pass. Had he spun it backward, it would have been a live fumble.


A similar call was made when Plaxico Burress did the same thing with the Steelers on Oct. 1, 2000.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:22 PM   #7
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Well, when they looked closely at the rulebook last night on the news, it said the penalty for an illegal forward pass is 5 yards AND LOSS OF DOWN. It was 4th down but they gave them the first down anyway. So they are still wrong and grasping for a reason to make themselves right...
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Old 11-28-2006, 10:30 AM   #8
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http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/penaltysummaries

Five Yards and Loss of Down (Combination Penalty)

1. Forward pass thrown from beyond line of scrimmage.

The thing to keep in mind about this is there was already a legal forward pass thrown from behind the line of scrimmage and completed to a receiver beyond the line to gain. That gave the Chargers a first down.

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/fumble

4. On a play from scrimmage, if an offensive player fumbles anywhere on the field during fourth down, only the fumbling player is permitted to recover and/or advance the ball. If any player fumbles after the two-minute warning in a half, only the fumbling player is permitted to recover and/or advance the ball. If recovered by any other offensive player, the ball is dead at the spot of the fumble unless it is recovered behind the spot of the fumble. In that case, the ball is dead at the spot of recovery. Any defensive player may recover and/or advance any fumble at any time.

This would lead you to believe that what he did was in fact a fumble. By rule, however, an illegal forward fumble is an incomplete pass. That makes it a dead ball. A 5-yard penalty is then assessed from the spot. The entire rule book is not presented online, so this rule isn't there for us to see in black and white. I went to the play-by-play description on NFL.com. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playby...0061126_OAK@SD

On that play, here is the description:
4-2-OAK40 (11:53) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass short middle to V.Jackson, dead ball declared at OAK 27 for 13 yards.
PENALTY on SD-V.Jackson, Illegal Forward Pass, 5 yards, enforced between downs.

I referee in WV and this play will make for some terrific discussion next season.
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
A similar call was made when Plaxico Burress did the same thing with the Steelers on Oct. 1, 2000.
I can tell you as a Steeler fan who very much remembers yelling at the TV after that play that the Burress call was ruled a fumble and a turnover. The refs this year are out of control and games have been decided by them because of it. I can cite many bogus judgment calls (and non calls) that went against the Steelers all season long which were "correct" according to Pereira, but were based on what the ref(s) believed the INTENT of the player to be, not the actual outcome or reality of the play.

There is no way that players like Lawrence Taylor, Jack Lambert or others like them would be the players we remember. They would have been fined and flagged into non-existence then remembered as has beens. Soon they will be issuing white belts and flags to QB's so that they don't get hurt.

Yes, I'm very pissed about the "pussification" of the NFL. No longer is it a man's sport, it's been homogenized and pasteurized to the point of it ridiculousness.

I need an aspirin.
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad
I can tell you as a Steeler fan who very much remembers yelling at the TV after that play that the Burress call was ruled a fumble and a turnover.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...l/4363317.html

"The Raiders compared it to a similar play by Plaxico Burress in 2000 for the Pittsburgh Steelers, when he spiked the ball after a catch while the play was still alive. Danny Clark recovered for Jacksonville and returned the ball 44 yards.

But NFL spokesman Steve Alic said Burress' spike went backward, making it a fumble instead of an illegal forward pass."
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gridironmike
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...l/4363317.html

"The Raiders compared it to a similar play by Plaxico Burress in 2000 for the Pittsburgh Steelers, when he spiked the ball after a catch while the play was still alive. Danny Clark recovered for Jacksonville and returned the ball 44 yards.

But NFL spokesman Steve Alic said Burress' spike went backward, making it a fumble instead of an illegal forward pass."
I wonder if he spiked it forward, and it bounced backward? Or if he was facing backwards when he spiked it? If it's the former then it still should be a forward pass. I'd love to see video of that play to compare to this current one. Personally I think intent needs to be considered. He threw the ball down, it was a fumble. He wasn't trying to gain more yards and the refs should be able to interpret the action to make the call.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:40 AM   #12
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan8379
I wonder if he spiked it forward, and it bounced backward? Or if he was facing backwards when he spiked it? If it's the former then it still should be a forward pass. I'd love to see video of that play to compare to this current one. Personally I think intent needs to be considered. He threw the ball down, it was a fumble. He wasn't trying to gain more yards and the refs should be able to interpret the action to make the call.

No matter which way it went after it hit the ground, the intial force is what determines what it is. Intent can't be considered. Players would always say I didn't intend to hit him with my helmet, etc. Or, what if a player intended to hit a guy in the head and completely missed? Would you flag him for it?
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gridironmike
No matter which way it went after it hit the ground, the intial force is what determines what it is. Intent can't be considered. Players would always say I didn't intend to hit him with my helmet, etc. Or, what if a player intended to hit a guy in the head and completely missed? Would you flag him for it?
What about "intentional grounding"? Intent does come into play sometimes.

IMO,They are too focused on the letter of the rule instead of the spirit of the rule. Does anyone honestly think that if the Charger that dove for the ball had recovered it, that they would have gone thru the same call or would they have simply ruled it a fumble and recovery?
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