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Old 10-27-2006, 10:31 AM   #136
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You might find this article interesting from proponents of Hydrogen called "Twenty Hydrogen Myths". They suggest that the Oil Companies don't oppose it, in fact have invested Billions in R&D towards the goal of selling Hydrogen. I also found it interesting that if natural gas is used as the source for hydrogen, then gas stations can have hydrogen generators installed on site eliminating the need for transport of hydrogen. They could have generators that service in the neighborhood of 20-100 cars/day. This could be a good short term solution, but when hydrogen takes off, they would obviously need more capacity than 20-100 cars/day.

http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Ener...rogenMyths.pdf
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Old 10-27-2006, 11:50 PM   #137
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hi manco,

i plan to read all 49 pages, but just a bit at a time.

so far, i have read the first 6 pages, although the first 3 were only title pages, so in actuality, i read 3 pages. LOL.

one thing to note, as i have been saying, is the tremendous efficiency difference. the amount of energy delivered to the drive shaft is 15-17% efficient for a car. the conversion of hydrogen to electricity and to the drive shaft is 50-70%.

i didnt realize that the hydrogen to elec conversion was that far below 100 %.

but this is to the drive shaft. they dont mention anything at all about the other devices. for example, an electric engine doesnt need any smog devices. and smog devices really cut down on the efficiency of a gas engine, in terms of moving the car, not to mention the fumes it sends us to breathe. LOL.

electric engines also dont require transmissions. as has been explained to me by an extremely knowledgeable car person, is that the gasoline engine is only efficient at a rather small rpm distribution. thus the transmission, which, with proper shifting, tries to keep the car within that range. the electric engine has none of that. electricity is either on or off, and has immediate access to full power.
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Old 10-30-2006, 11:48 AM   #138
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I would say that anyone who comes up with a patent then a fuel distribution network would be set, even if you are an OIL company. Not to mention you wouldn't have to deal with international political boundaries.
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:58 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
I would say that anyone who comes up with a patent then a fuel distribution network would be set, even if you are an OIL company. Not to mention you wouldn't have to deal with international political boundaries.
You never know, RC. A huge number of rare substances come from other nations. If, say, rhodium turns out to be critical for hydrogen utilization, then South Africa might find itself wielding an inordinate amount of clout. Rhodium exporters might well bottleneck the whole technology. In an era of dwindling oil reserves, there might arise a consortium of rhodium producing and exporting nations (RPEC?), every bit as greedy and manipulative as OPEC.

IOW... we can't win.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:48 PM   #140
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well, apparently we will be making our first hydrogen mainly from natural gas. and hydrogen fuel cells can displace less efficient central resources for delivering electricity, so we are in the plus, from the very get-go. because as i have said a zillion times - we will be more efficient with the expenditure of energy, using hydrogen.

the hydrogen transition should not need enormous investments over and above what the energy industries are already using.

so we could easily start the hydrogen transition today IF WE WANTED TO.
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Old 11-02-2006, 09:40 AM   #141
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gymeejet, do you have any links to back any of that up?
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:14 PM   #142
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cr, i think this is a first. asking someone to supply the links from someone else's post !!!!!

but for you, anything !!! LOL.

on google, i performed the search +"hydrogen fuel cells" +"delivering electricity".

here is some of what i got back. i did not read any of it, yet. so i am not posting stuff that just supports what i want, since i dont know what it says.

http://www.metrotimes.com/news/stori.../09/fuel1.html

http://www.informinc.org/pr_zeroemission.php

http://www.informinc.org/xsum_hydrogen.php

http://www.gsenet.org/library/21trn/hydgnveh.php

http://www.energy.gov/news/3214.htm

http://www.all-energy.co.uk/News@All-Energy.html

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/A...8124/8124.html

http://eetimes.com/news/latest/showA...questid=214881

http://www.chattoogariver.org/Articl...gyPolitics.htm

http://www.nemw.org/Great%20Lakes%20energy.pdf

http://www.nemw.org/ER%20F05-energy.pdf

that should keep you reading for awhile. next time you may not want to ask for it. LOL.
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:25 PM   #143
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No problem, g. I was just wondering if a specific article spurred that post.

It's all good.
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Old 11-02-2006, 08:45 PM   #144
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hi cr,

i hope you know that i am just kidding around with you. if you can, read the urls that i found, and i will try to read them, as well.

at the moment, i am reading the 49 pages that manco posted. i am even more convinced than ever, that we could be starting in on hydrogen, if the powers-that-are really wanted to do that.
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Old 11-04-2006, 02:17 AM   #145
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Myth 1 - a whole hydrogen industry would need to be developed from scratch.

the article went on to show that the production of hydrogen is already a large and global industry. about 50 million metric tons is used annually. the u.s. produces 1/5 to 1/3 of this total.

the industrial infrastructure for producing centralized hydrogen already exists, and most of the hydrogen produced is used on site or nearby.

there are 930 miles of hydrogen pipelines already in use.

most future uses of hydrogen are not centralized. they will serve dispersed customers (i.e. mainly you and me.)
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Old 11-05-2006, 11:26 PM   #146
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This vehicle looks promising and their fuel delivery system looks very interesting.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...73262084231399
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Old 11-06-2006, 01:03 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookworm
This vehicle looks promising and their fuel delivery system looks very interesting.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...73262084231399
If I could refuel this using my exisiting natural gas at home, that would make for a nice commuter car until they can get the hydrogen refueling stations nationwide.
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Old 11-06-2006, 02:13 AM   #148
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hi bookworm,

thanks for sharing this very interesting information.
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Old 11-09-2006, 08:55 PM   #149
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Myth 2 - Hydrogen is too dangerous, explosive, or "volatile" for common use as a fuel.

hydrogen has an enviable safety record, spanning 50 years. it is 4 times more diffusive than natural gas, and 12 times more diffusive than gasoline, so leaking hydrogen travels faster from its source than does natural gas or gasoline.

while hard to see in the daylight, it burns with a non-luminous flame, that wont scorch you from a distance. unlike natural gas, hydrogen when encountering a spark, is far more apt to burn than explode. and its theoretical explosive power per unit volume of gas is 22 times less than gasoline vapor.
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Old 11-10-2006, 05:26 PM   #150
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Quote:
well, apparently we will be making our first hydrogen mainly from natural gas.
Comes from oil companies.

Myth2. Hydrogen IS a dengerous explosive. The tanks are designed to be safe just like car gas tanks.....

notice the .....
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