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Old 11-11-2006, 02:35 AM   #151
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hi rc,

the explosiveness of hydrogen is compared to gasoline, not cotton candy. LOL.

you said it will first be made from natural gas, owned by the oil companies.

DING DING DING DING DING. as i have said all along, hydrogen will come if and only if the oil companies want it to come. and you can be darn sure that the oil companies will have control of that market.
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:46 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
Myth2. Hydrogen IS a dengerous explosive. The tanks are designed to be safe just like car gas tanks.....

notice the .....
From everything I know about hydrogen, I would rather be in a car accident with hydrogen than with gasoline as my fuel.
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:49 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
you said it will first be made from natural gas, owned by the oil companies.

DING DING DING DING DING. as i have said all along, hydrogen will come if and only if the oil companies want it to come. and you can be darn sure that the oil companies will have control of that market.
There's a very good reason it comes from natural gas, and it isn't a conspiracy from the oil companies. It's simply because creating hydrogen from electricity, and then transporting it isn't nearly as efficient as creating it from natural gas AT the gas station, and then just pumping it into the car. Second there isn't enough electricity capacity to generate as much hydrogen as we would need.

Since Natural gas is already available at many gas stations, they simply need to install a hydrogen generator and a pump and they are ready to go.
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Old 11-14-2006, 01:57 PM   #154
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Myth 3 - making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields, so it is prohibitively inefficient.

any conversion from one energy source to another creates losses, since there is bound to be some heat loss, at least. if it created gains, we could violate the law of physics that energy is neither destroyed or lost, and have a virtual energy making machine. so the real question is how much does it lose.

crude oil to gas is 73-91% efficient. fossil fuel to electricity is only 29-35% efficient. WE HAD BETTER NOT MAKE ANY MORE ELECTRICITY. LOL. natural gas to hydrogen is 72-85% efficient,and 70-75% efficient in electrolyzers.

but as i have pointed out many times and the article also says so - hydrogen's greater end-use efficiency more than makes up for the greater conversion losses.

while crude oil can be more efficiently made into gas than natural gas or electricity can create hydrogen, but hydrogen in a fuel cell is 200-300% more efficient than gasoline running a fuel engine.

88% of oil winds up as gas in the gas tank. but only 16% of the gas winds up at the wheels of your car. from well to wheels - 14% efficient.

70% of natural gas winds up as hydrogen in your hydrogen tank. and then 60% of the hydrogen winds up at the wheels of the car. from well to wheels - 42% efficient. EXACTLY 3 TIMES MORE EFFICIENT.

and this is comparing 100 year old technology with little room for improvement versus brand new technology with all sorts of room for improvement.
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Old 11-14-2006, 02:09 PM   #155
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gymeejet. Great series of posts. I'd like to join the devils advocate side on this.

Natural gas and electrolization are currently the two most efficient and affordable methods. For the foreseeable future, then, we must make a choice of competing with residential users of natural gas and electricity at a time when natural gas supplies are dwindling and the electrical grid is already overtaxed. It becomes a choice of warm homes in the winter, cool homes in the summer, or non-polluting cars. Right now, I don't see hydrogen coming out the winner.

As a developing technology, I suspect other alternatives will come about. Assuming those alternatives are not gobbled up by an energy-hungry population, then we might see hydrogen used more extensively.
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:12 PM   #156
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hi cr,

as time permits, i plan to overview each of the 20 myths.

but it does seem as though our first venture into hydrogen will be with natural gas, not electricity. so i thought it appropriate to post a url on it. i really am not that familiar with it - how it is formed, how we get it. i wasnt sure if it was actually gaseous when gotten, or does it become gaseous after a certain amount of processing.

http://www.naturalgas.org/
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:28 AM   #157
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I'll admit ignorance on this, too, gymeejet. But the methodology is beside the point, isn't it? Unless we're talking about hydrogen partial pressure in natural gas out of the well head, stripping of hydrogen from natural gas molecules (predominantly methane) leaves carbon. Not a burnable fuel byproduct.

Your assessment of the situation does seem logical, however. Natural gas will probably function as a 'springboard' source of hydrogen, which will allow further research and development on the utilization of hydrogen, while concurrent research goes on to develop new sources of hydrogen.

I don't disagree with the debunking of Myth No. 3, just it's relevance. While hydrogen is obviously a superior vehicle fuel, it will ultimately be competing with home energy sources.

If you don't mind, I'll occaisionally act as a 'devil's advocate', trying to knock down some of the assumptions about the facts behind the myths, in the interest of bilateral debate.
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:22 AM   #158
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hi cr,

chirp in whenever you feel. i just figured we should have a url to look up, since we seem to be mentioning natural gas a lot. also, i wanted to verify just how dwindling our supplies actually are. they used to say that about oil all the time, but supposedly we could go for over 200 years, if need be.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:43 PM   #159
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Good point. I just looked at a headline that said that, but I don't have time right now to read that article.

I could very well believe there are huge, untapped resevoirs of natural gas, blocked by well-meaning environmentalists (like nuclear power), who fail to grasp the big picture, and therefore help perpetuate less efficient and more polluting hydrocarbon fuels.
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Old 11-16-2006, 02:50 AM   #160
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Myth 3 - continued.

using electricity to make hydrogen, and then using the hydrogen fuel cell to create electricity again is only 45% efficient, after 25% electrolyzer losses and 40% fuel cell losses.

however, a peaking power plant is only 15-20% efficient.

[me - i am learning something about all this, so it is worthwhile. apparently, the higher the demand on the creation of electricity in a plant, the lower the efficiency is. at some load factor, it is actually more efficient to use hydrogen for anything greater than that load. so the mathematics of it that i can see is the following : we can continue to work on electrolysis, as this will be the best long-term solution. but at this point, we create most of our hydrogen from natural gas. and when our electricity plants are not doing much (while people are sleeping), they could also help with the output of making hydrogen. this hydrogen can then be used for peak loads in our electricity plants, thereby making that more efficient, and saving on the baseload supply to make electricity. and the remaining hydrogen could then be used to start the hydrogen fuel cell car market.)

yes, cr, i know i have not addressed the heating solution. okay, we would be using a lot of natural gas for making hydrogen, possibly hurting our heating abilities (depending on how short our supply of natural gas really is).

but we could at least offset some of this by using this more efficient electricity to run heat pumps for doing some of the heating and cooling of our homes.]
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Old 11-20-2006, 11:28 PM   #161
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Myth 4 - delivering hydrogen to users would consume most of the energy it contains.

most hydrogen strategists already agree that for the first couple of decades or so, DECENTRALIZED production, at or near the customer, is how we will "deliver" our first hydrogen products.
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Old 11-25-2006, 05:14 PM   #162
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Myth 5 - hydrogen cant be distributed in existing pipelines, requiring costly new ones.

if centralized hydrogen did eventually become prudent, then existing pipelines could be used - by adding polymer-composite liners, plus a hydrogen-blocking metallized coater or liner.

japan is already on its way to making its major siberia-china-japan pipeline hydrogen compatible.

as far as natural gas pipelines, many are already hydrogen compatible, as they were built for gas that was 60% hydrogen by volume.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:04 PM   #163
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http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-b...business-print
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Old 12-09-2006, 01:47 AM   #164
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myth 6 - we dont have practical ways to run cars on gaseous hydrogen, so cars must continue to use liquid fuels.

fuel cells are 50-70% efficient, going from hydrogen directly to electricity, to run our electric motors, which have tons of benefits over gasoline engines.

all significant auto manufacturers have major fuel-cell car development programs.

fuel cells will be used in buildings, as well as cars. so each helps the other, in terms of making them come about sooner.
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:44 AM   #165
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myth 7 - we lack a safe and affordable method to store hydrogen in our cars.

the problem was solved years ago with filament-wound carbon-fiber tanks. these tanks have 10 times the performance of aluminum or steel tanks. they dont corrode, and go unscathed in crashes that flatten their steel counterparts.
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