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Old 11-27-2007, 02:28 PM   #211
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That hoda car uses a lithion ion battery.
Only for storing braking energy, the same approach hybrids use.
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Old 11-27-2007, 03:17 PM   #212
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I know, I was just pointing out there will need to be some batteries in the car.

How cool is the Home Energy Station that Honda is also working on. Who wouldn't want to just fill up their car at home? I hate going to fuel stations; gasoline, hydrogen, anti-matter. Doesn't matter.

The latest one is 70 percent smaller than the first. There is hope. But I sitll wonder... how all that excess water vapor is going to react. Water vapor IS the biggest green house gas.

..EDIT forgot link: http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/8520
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Old 11-27-2007, 03:37 PM   #213
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Don't worry, you couldn't afford me.

So you're excited just because of the words "hydrogen" and "fuel cell", and some future humongous potential, but you don't know anything about the actual environmental impact. Do I have that right?
no, you dont have that right. go back to the drawing board, and let me know when you have it figured out correctly.

perhaps i wouldnt want to hire you, in the first place
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:58 PM   #214
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no, you dont have that right. go back to the drawing board, and let me know when you have it figured out correctly.
How about you just tell us?

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perhaps i wouldnt want to hire you, in the first place
Whew. I dodged that bullet.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:34 PM   #215
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i would tell you, but you only want to be argumentative.

and if you actually read what i said, you would at least know that i am aware of some environmental impact, since i mentioned it.

i want to see if your reading ability is better than your argumentativeness.

the only times i get sarcastic with you, is when you do things to deserve it - i never start it.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:48 PM   #216
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i want to see if your reading ability is better than your argumentativeness.
I don't believe you. I don't think you can articulate the reason behind your excitement.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:51 PM   #217
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are you willing to have a reasonable discussion ?

and that means when you ask me a question, you dont ask it with an insult ?

as i told you, i want to keep this thread an informative one, so i dont want to play any more sarcastic games with you.
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Old 11-28-2007, 12:50 AM   #218
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are you willing to have a reasonable discussion ?

and that means when you ask me a question, you dont ask it with an insult ?

as i told you, i want to keep this thread an informative one, so i dont want to play any more sarcastic games with you.
There are no insults in my questions. I'm always willing to have a reasonable discussion.
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Old 11-28-2007, 01:24 AM   #219
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okay.

i thought manco may have at least a reasonable concern. if we do need to use more electricity, at least at first, how do we go about doing this.

after giving it some thought, my reply was the following.

lets start out with a small area. la county, san bernadino county, and riverside county - have tons of smog, and long commutes. it would be the perfect testing ground. and with that small of an area, i dont think we really need to be concerned about the extra electricity, like we might, if we were talking about the whole country.

however, the concern of the environment, which you brought up, is not really any concern, in my opinion.

that is because whatever extra pollution we may cause to make the hydrogen - ABSOLUTELY PALES IN COMPARISON to what we would be saving in the end game. it is called A ZERO-EMISSION VEHICLE.

toss that around in your head a few times. i am not sure that the totality of that has really sunk in. we would start out from the get-go, being more environmentally friendly.

the bottom line - lets start small. then you and i can talk about what actual problems there is.

let me say one thing about the honda car coming out next year. while i have outside hopes, i do believe it is a smokescreen. with oil at its highest value ever, i dont think the wealth in this country will allow it to survive, no matter how successful it could be.

i have said this many times before. if the oil companies wanted to sell us hydrogen in hydrogen cars, that is what would be happening. all this silliness about the problems that we would have is just that - silliness. any of these problems could be solved, if the desire to solve them, was present.

IT IS REALLY THAT SIMPLE.
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:05 AM   #220
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however, the concern of the environment, which you brought up, is not really any concern, in my opinion.

that is because whatever extra pollution we may cause to make the hydrogen - ABSOLUTELY PALES IN COMPARISON to what we would be saving in the end game. it is called A ZERO-EMISSION VEHICLE.

toss that around in your head a few times. i am not sure that the totality of that has really sunk in. we would start out from the get-go, being more environmentally friendly.
We would if it was a zero emission vehicle. If the hydrogen that fuels it comes from natural gas, then it isn't, unless they have some fool-proof, economically feasible carbon sequestration method in place (and they don't). Toss that around in your head a few times. If we emit as much carbon producing hydrogen as we do burning gasoline, nothing is saved in the "end game".

When I asked you about the CO2 emissions from the hydrogen production in this car's target market, you said:

"no, i havent followed the details."

So you don't know the environmental impact of this car or this technology. And I still don't know why it excites you so much.
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:22 AM   #221
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i think i already answered that. that which is saved is many times greater than that which would be spent.

the vehicle itself is zero emission. that is why i am so excited. simply reread my post. i dont have anything to add to what i have said previously.

i dont think you will find one proponent here or anywhere else, except perhaps an oil company representative, who would give any credence to the problem you are positing.

and that is that the amount of pollution in creating the hydrogen would be equal or more than that which is saved by using a zero-emission vehicle versus our gasoline car.

the extra use of electricity is at least a reality, it seems. the extra pollution just isnt. if the new system even polluted 10% as much as the current one, it would surprise me.

but let me repeat this for you. and i dont mean this sarcastically. it just that it bears repeating.

we are talking about hydrogen in its absolute infancy, and comparing it to the gasoline car, which has been around for a 100 years. go back to the model t, and then compare that to the car of today.

there is ENORMOUS POTENTIAL and ENORMOUS ROOM FOR GROWTH in the hydrogen car - there is no future potential for the gasoline car.

and we are not just talking about cars. it will start with cars, since that is the biggest problem that we have. but we will be using the hydrogen system for many of our energy needs.

frankly, i cant see how you arent excited about it. you dont have ties with an oil company, do you ?

i only wish we could be debating this 2 years from now, but more than likely it will get ashcanned by big oil.
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:28 AM   #222
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you also talk about the amount of pollution that will be caused by creating hydrogen ?

do you think that the amount of pollution that is currently caused by creating gasoline is non-existent ?

math equation

pollution caused to create gasoline + pollution caused burning gasoline in our cars >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pollution caused to create hydrogen + 0.

now, if you want to discuss this further with me, the burden of proof FALLS UPON YOU IN A HUGE WAY to show that the above math equation is false.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:33 AM   #223
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i think i already answered that. that which is saved is many times greater than that which would be spent.

the vehicle itself is zero emission. that is why i am so excited. simply reread my post. i dont have anything to add to what i have said previously.
Why do you say that without any information on the actual emissions?

Do you you own a natural gas well?

Quote:
pollution caused to create gasoline + pollution caused burning gasoline in our cars >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pollution caused to create hydrogen + 0.

now, if you want to discuss this further with me, the burden of proof FALLS UPON YOU IN A HUGE WAY to show that the above math equation is false.
No, you need to put numbers in that equation before anyone should try to disprove it. Until then it's pure speculation.
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:04 AM   #224
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i am happy to rest my case, at this point.
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:18 PM   #225
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If the car is fueld at that test home fueling station then it could be considered an "emission free" vehicle. But then again ... even 200 years in the future nothing would be ever be emission free. It took energy to build the house in the first place. And the solar panels, and the car, and the plastics and the road, etc. However, even if the car is fueled by hydrogen made from fossile fuels today... the vehicle itself is still emission free as an entity. Except it produces water. Meaning it's emitting something, and heat. But for the sake of harmful emissions, it has none as a vehicle. Regardless of the energy spent fueling it and making it.
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