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Old 11-28-2007, 05:38 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by RoadClosed View Post
If the car is fueld at that test home fueling station then it could be considered an "emission free" vehicle.
Where you fuel it (or where you produce the fuel) doesn't change the emissions. If you fuel it with hydrogen produced from natural gas, or from burning coal, etc., then it isn't "emission free" (even if you fuel it at home).
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:07 PM   #227
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The home experiment is solar.
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:14 PM   #228
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The home experiment is solar.
No, it's natural gas (from Hydrogen Station):

"In addition to a solar cell-powered hydrogen refueling station, Honda is operating an experimental Home Energy Station that generates hydrogen from natural gas for use in fuel cell vehicles while supplying electricity and hot water to the home as part of its ongoing research into development of hydrogen production and supply systems for a hydrogen-based society of the future."
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:55 PM   #229
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Here's something promissing...

Using existing bacteria to break down waste (sewage, plant material, etc) and produce Hydrogen. 2 birsd with one stone and all that...

http://www.livescience.com/technolog...gen_waste.html

hi bw,

thanks for the find. looks like a process that can help our waste management, as well as give us a small source of additional hydrogen, once we are on the highway.

does it by any chance kill off the oil executives, along the way ?
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:15 PM   #230
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Hydrogen is a theory. I dare any of you to PROVE to me that there is something with a single proton and a single electron.

PROVE it! And statistics mean nothing. I want hard facts, not your math bs. No models, I want empirical data absent of any statistical analysis.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:56 AM   #231
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Electricity is a theory also. Prove it doesn't exist by sticking your finger into a light socket right now.


Meme that is a different station in addition to the solar station. It doesn't even look the same and is not at the same location. Its a separate experiment.

"In addition to a solar cell-powered hydrogen refueling station, Honda is operating an experimental Home Energy Station that generates hydrogen from natural gas for use in fuel cell vehicles while supplying electricity and hot water to the home as part of its ongoing research into development of hydrogen production and supply systems for a hydrogen-based society of the future."
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:04 AM   #232
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Meme that is a different station in addition to the solar station. It doesn't even look the same and is not at the same location. Its a separate experiment.

"In addition to a solar cell-powered hydrogen refueling station, Honda is operating an experimental Home Energy Station that generates hydrogen from natural gas for use in fuel cell vehicles while supplying electricity and hot water to the home as part of its ongoing research into development of hydrogen production and supply systems for a hydrogen-based society of the future."
Read the whole thing. The solar station isn't for home use. The home station uses natural gas.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:18 AM   #233
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Read the whole thing. The solar station isn't for home use. The home station uses natural gas.
They are two sided the way I understand it. The natural gas side and the solar side. I also saw a schematic for a home with solar hydrogen that I'll try an find.


http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/honda.pdf


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10530747
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:15 PM   #234
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They are two sided the way I understand it. The natural gas side and the solar side. I also saw a schematic for a home with solar hydrogen that I'll try an find.


http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/honda.pdf


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10530747
Again, those are not home fueling stations. Their home fueling station has no solar component.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:59 PM   #235
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Ok fine they are not home fueling stations, but they are still solar fueling stations. The natural gas thing is interesting. They don't use electricity, they use natural gas to power the home and provide hydrogen. And isn't natural gas just pumped from the ground?
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:07 PM   #236
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Ok fine they are not home fueling stations, but they are still solar fueling stations. The natural gas thing is interesting. They don't use electricity, they use natural gas to power the home and provide hydrogen. And isn't natural gas just pumped from the ground?
Sure, very much like oil. Have I mentioned that using natural gas to produce hydrogen emits carbon dioxide? I'm pretty sure I have. The fact that it is "pumped from the ground" doesn't change that.
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:15 PM   #237
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It changes the carbon foot print significantly and DOI I have never said natural gas or electicity or anything using fossil fuels is emission free. You make an argument that since the car uses fuel that isn't emission free when it's made and carried to a fueling fascility then said car can't posibly be emission free. I stated earlier I agree somewhat and that one could argue the car itself once fueled is emission free.

Either way, when the natural gas is burned it's used for more than hydrogen production. And the natural gas would be used anyway, plus gasoline and plus the carbon emission from a power plant. Accarding to honda their is a 30 percent total co2 reduction for the entire house regardless of how the car is fueled.

My point was that a solar station doesn't have the fossil fuel overhead. but if you want to get technical there can never be an emission free car by your definition. Because plastic is used in it's construction. So once again that leaves us with Nuclear Energy since only Honda and Bill Gates can afford the fuel system.
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:27 PM   #238
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It changes the carbon foot print significantly and DOI I have never said natural gas or electicity or anything using fossil fuels is emission free. You make an argument that since the car uses fuel that isn't emission free when it's made and carried to a fueling fascility then said car can't posibly be emission free. I stated earlier I agree somewhat and that one could argue the car itself once fueled is emission free.
And I can argue that an internal combustion car, once stopped, is emission free.

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Either way, when the natural gas is burned it's used for more than hydrogen production.
Minor point: you don't burn natural gas to produce hydrogen.

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And the natural gas would be used anyway, plus gasoline and plus the carbon emission from a power plant. Accarding to honda their is a 30 percent total co2 reduction for the entire house regardless of how the car is fueled.
Where did they say that? I haven't been able to find any hard numbers on CO2 emissions from this technology.

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My point was that a solar station doesn't have the fossil fuel overhead.
No one said it did.
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:47 PM   #239
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Those numbers are mentioned in 3 or 4 of the references I was looking at.


These guys say 60 percent for the car:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11...nergy-station/

Quote:
According to Honda's Stephen Ellis, using this system to generate hydrogen and fuel an FCX can reduce total well-to-wheel CO2 emissions by sixty percent compared to an equivalent gasoline-fueled car.
50 percent overall for entire household.

Quote:
The Home Energy Station IV can reduce both cost and carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions for the consumer. Compared to the average U.S. consumer's home with grid-supplied electricity and a gasoline-powered car, a home using Home Energy Station IV to help produce heat and electricity and also to refuel an FCX Clarity can reduce CO2 emissions by an estimated 30 percent and energy costs by an estimated 50 percent.
But all that comes from Honda statements.

Quote:
Minor point: you don't burn natural gas to produce hydrogen.
I know, I meant ot put "quotes" around "burn".

Last edited by RoadClosed; 11-29-2007 at 06:51 PM..
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:52 PM   #240
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And I can argue that an internal combustion car, once stopped, is emission free.
Which is a significant drawback considering the Honda car is emission free while moving.
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