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Old 09-29-2005, 07:08 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
Most interesting. Wonder what the whackos think of Bush's efforts in this area.
i think it will be interesting to see california's progress year by year.

it is still increasing. the stations are being placed in the more populated areas, so it will become doable for more and more people.

we wont be able to take long "vacation-like" trips until the hydrogen-highway is lined with stations every 50 miles or so.

but most driving is done locally.

california is a good state to start with, since lots and lots of people commute 40+ miles to work. they own where they can afford, and then go to where they can find jobs.
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Old 11-01-2005, 11:06 AM   #32
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Default Hydrogen researchers step on the gas

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9830811/
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Old 11-01-2005, 12:45 PM   #33
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So hydrogen powered vehicles are still in the pipedream category. [sigh][/sigh] Too bad.
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Old 11-01-2005, 07:18 PM   #34
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only because the oil companies want to continue selling us oil - and send our kids off to be killed, our air polluted, etc.
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Old 11-01-2005, 08:50 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
only because the oil companies want to continue selling us oil - and send our kids off to be killed, our air polluted, etc.
This isn't the political asylum
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Old 11-01-2005, 09:57 PM   #36
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Just because I can't stay out of this thread, to add my $0.02 for what it's worth:

I don't believe we will have hydrogen cars anymore widespread than pure electric cars for along time to come. Hydrogen is a difficult material to store and transport and at this time, expensive to make. No doubt the range of a hydrogen car, now poor and of little use, will improve. Perhaps one day we will all be in hydrogen cars, with the H2 generated by solar/wind power, but not anytime in the short to medium term future.

I think that working with current internal combustion engine technology there are great improvements that could be made. Think of how much power has improved over the last 20 years while keeping fuel economy relatively constant. Now if the same developments were applied, I would think keeping adequate power constant, they could make similar gains in fuel economy without any huge changes to vehicles.

To build on that, I think the vehicle of the next 50+ years will be a diesel hybrid. Today's hybrid cars are not of use to large portions of the population who will experience no fuel economy increase. However as the cost comes down of the technology, every car will one day be a hybrid, no options, no special models. The example I'm thinking of is airbags, where once they were optional on just certain cars, nowadays every single car has them. Just like your car wheels and an engine, it will also be a hybrid. Diesel also has huge potential for increases in economy over standard gasoline engines but also to make use of more common heavier hydrocarbons and require less refining (less energy use to make). Plus I believe more and more people will be giving biodiesel a try. Running your car on used frenchfry oil obtained from your local McDonalds is something people are trying today right now without apparent losses in power or range from what I've read of biodiesel.

Perhaps 100 years from now we will all fly around in hydrogen Jetsons cars, but for the medium term my money is on diesel hybrids.
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Old 11-02-2005, 01:10 AM   #37
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One other problem people overlook with the "hydrogen" car is it takes electricity to extract the hydrogen from water. Unfortunately, this means burning more coal, oil and gas to generate the electricity with no real savings in energy. Unless we can get massive amounts of more electricity from clean sources, using hydrogen will not solve the problem it is intended to solve.
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Old 11-02-2005, 01:51 AM   #38
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hi manco,

there is still a big savings in energy. what people also dont take into account is the efficiency of the processes.

the hydrogen car is much more efficient - that is to say that the percentage of energy used in locomotion is much better than the gasoline engine.

the gas that we burn in the car is mostly wasted. that same gas that we burn in a plant to make electricity is highly efficient.

we want to continue to use whatever fossil fuels that we need, in very efficient processes, so that we can limit the pollution as much as possible.

the hydrogen car, if we use fuel cells, has an electric engine - which means that we no longer need a transmission. nor do we need all that smog crap on the car that also brings down the efficiency and performance of the gasoline engine.

underneath the hood would once again have some room in it. electric engines warm up immediately - everything about it would be so much better than gasoline engines.

auto parts companies and mechanics may not be so happy about cars with fewer parts and less maintenance - but it would sure be great for us consumers.

as you can see - just as the automobile replaced wheelwrights and the rest of the horse and buggy industry, hydrogen would make huge changes in today's way of doing things for some industries, who will fight to keep the status quo.

that is the ONLY REASON why we do not already have hydrogen cars. we could have started on this 30 years ago, had we wanted to do so. had we done so, then all of these reasons that are being given as to why hydrogen cars will not be out for awhile, would have already been solved, and we would already have the hydrogen highway in 4th gear and driving smoothly.
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Old 11-02-2005, 05:56 AM   #39
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Apparently there are some new biotechnologies or from renewable such as wind and waves evolving to generate hydrogen. So far these technologies are still more theoretical than real but clearly if we can generate hydrogen without burning fossil fuels and then perhaps our problems are in fact solved--until we discover the next downside to this mechanism of energy production.

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Old 11-02-2005, 09:57 AM   #40
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hi ub,

we will more than likely make large improvements, but we need to start.
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Old 11-02-2005, 12:29 PM   #41
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I agree that hydrogen has issues in feasibility but we must continue to sponsor scientific studies and support those initiatives.
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Old 11-02-2005, 04:12 PM   #42
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Don't get me wrong, I'm all for moving forward with the hydrogen fueled cars, but right now, to make meaningful change, there isn't enough energy from wind, solar waves etc to get the hydrogen we need. Building nuclear power plants is the only thing that could generate the amount of electricity needed for massive amounts of hydrogen generation in a air polution free way.

If we can convert households over to solar, then that would free up energy needed for hydrogen production. This seems like the most promising solution. Once Solar is cheap enough to outfit most households then we are on our way to a hydrogen economy. There are some breakthroughs in solar technology that could make this a reality.
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Old 11-02-2005, 04:23 PM   #43
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I think alot of the limiting factor and the danger in either solar or wind engergy for the houshold is batteries. You need a bunch of them and they can kill you.
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Old 11-02-2005, 05:36 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
I think alot of the limiting factor and the danger in either solar or wind engergy for the houshold is batteries. You need a bunch of them and they can kill you.
Fuel Cells take the place of batteries so that problem can be solved. Also you can tie into the grid selling your excess power back to the utility company as many in California do, so no batteries required.
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Old 11-02-2005, 06:49 PM   #45
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I built a windmill with a friend once. The batteries took up half a garage so you could use the electricity to light the house at night because the windmill didn't generate enough power. We did sell back the excess. Look at it this way, if it was easy I'd be doing it now. I did go look at an experiment with using a small solar cell to run a tiny water pump that is tied into the mains for backup. But in the case of lighting you would need some storage capacity otherwise there is not point in solar cells. I wasn't aware fuel cells were regargable by us normal humans. Time to go play on some sites. The cell used to operate that pump is pretty cool.
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