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Old 10-18-2006, 11:02 AM   #106
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hi manco,

well you are right about one thing - my dislike of the oil industry, holding us captive and using our soldiers to keep us in oil.

i wasnt disagreeing with what you said, exactly. let me give you an example.

you would be telling me that the patient will be feeling better when his blood pressure goes down. and i am telling you, sure the patient will feel better when his blood pressure goes down. but his blood pressure is not the source of the problem. it is what he is eating.

so a more correct statement would be - that the patient will feel better ONCE HE STARTS EATING CORRECTLY.

because his poor eating habits is the real cause of the problem. the high blood pressure is just an intermediate symptom.

so what i am saying is that the problem is not that the american public wont switch until it is economically feasible for them to do so ; but rather that the oil industry wants to continue to sell us oil, because that is how they can make the most profit, currently.

if for some reason, they could make more money from hydrogen at this very moment, they would switch over. and yes, at that time, it would magically be cheaper for the american public.

however, i think the public would switch for other reasons as well. if it was a draw, or even a little more expensive, but they would all have clean air to breathe - i think they would go for it.

but whatever impetus was needed to make the americans go for it would be given to them by the oil industry, BECAUSE NOW THE OIL INDUSTRY WOULD BE MOTIVATED TO SELL US HYDROGEN.

and that is the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM. fix that, and everything else falls in place.
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Old 10-18-2006, 11:05 AM   #107
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Gym,

We aren't that far off in our positions, but you have failed to tell us how you get the energy to produce the hydrogen. Until you can solve that problem, the hydrogen economy is just a theory.
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Old 10-18-2006, 11:05 AM   #108
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hi cr,

i did a search on "solid hydrogen", and came up with quite a few entries. one was talking about as use for rocket fuel, etc.

here is the first one i found (about 5th down) that talked about cars - it was being used on a prius.

http://www.hydrogenforecast.com/Arti...?articleID=241

when i saw it on television, at first i thought i was hearing things. hydrogen is a gas, and would not become a solid except for at very high pressures. but i can still see them walking away with some "solid hydrogen".
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Old 10-18-2006, 11:17 AM   #109
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after reading this article, i see that this solid is actually a powder. so it is not quite the same as the "hydrogen bar" that i saw.

it was interesting to me that this is already being used in india for their scooters, to help with the air pollution.

the article says that it emits only 1.5 % as much as their regular hybrid.
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Old 10-18-2006, 11:19 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manco
Gym,

We aren't that far off in our positions, but you have failed to tell us how you get the energy to produce the hydrogen. Until you can solve that problem, the hydrogen economy is just a theory.
hi manco,

i have already addressed that issue. reread the thread. you did not end up making a reply to my post.
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Old 10-18-2006, 11:32 AM   #111
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an excellent read.

http://www.hydrogen.com/faq.asp

here is a little tidbit from the above article, regarding the cost of electricity to make hydrogen. so we can have a starting point in that regard, from hereon out.

To extract hydrogen from water about 2.3 gallons of water and 45 kilowatts of electricity are needed. That will make enough hydrogen to have an energy content equivalent to a gallon of gasoline (about 120,000 British thermal units--Btus).
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Old 10-18-2006, 11:44 AM   #112
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for their solid hydrogen. does not mention if it is a powder or in a larger form.

http://www.platinum.matthey.com/medi...155740404.html
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:25 PM   #113
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Gym,

That was a pretty good article. There was some hype involved, but about as much as I expect from any company to put out about a product they are developing.

Maybe, in another decade or two, they will come out with something that we can afford AND want to drive.

Aren't you glad you ressurected this thread? BTW, it IS a long thread and one that was started months ago. Maybe you should recap the discussion of energy sources for splitting off hydrogen.
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Old 10-18-2006, 07:47 PM   #114
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hi cr,

i am not sure what you mean by recapping ? i certainly dont think of myself as any sort of expert on the details. i am always having to look stuff up.

on the above post where it mentions how much electricity it takes to make an equal amount of btus of hydrogen when compared to a gallon of gas - what i have been saying before is we can not compare this to a single gallon of gas.

we have to look at its throughput. gasoline is very wasteful in that only a small part of that energy burned, moves the car.

or to put it more simply, x btus of gas is not the same as x btus of hydrogen, when we are talking about motoring a car.

our hydrogen fueled cars will power an electric motor, so almost no waste, and no pollution. its emission is water vapor.

so we will also come to see a tremendous amount of savings in health care, not to mention the quality of our lives, because we are healthier from not inhaling all that pollution.
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Old 10-18-2006, 08:55 PM   #115
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I think Capn wants the same thing as I do which is to break down where the energy comes from for creating the hydrogen. Obviously if it takes 48kW of power to generate 1 gallon of gasoline equivalent, then that energy has to come from somewhere. Multiply that times the many millions of gallons of gasoline that we use every day, that's alot of electricity. BTW, at 48Kw of power that works out to be around $6.14 per gallon of gas equivalent if you use my electricity rates. But if we started using electricity to generate hydrogen, then we would be in a big shortage of power, and the rates would go up.

I think it points out that in order to get to the hydrogen economy we need cheap electricity that isn't generated from petroleum. That would most likely be nuclear, but we haven't built one of those plants in over 20 years.
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Old 10-18-2006, 09:46 PM   #116
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hi manco,

you keep deleting a very important point. okay, i will assume that you did your math correctly, and it cost us $6 to get that many btus of hydrogen that would come from a gallon of gasoline.

but x btus from hydrogen gets you a lot more miles that x btus from gasoline, because we waste a lot. so if that $6 gets us twice as far, then it is only $3 a gallon, or pretty much what we are already using.

i dont have the exact breakdowns for you, but i would think you could get it, by looking at how much electricity we use.

but i dont know why that is a big concern for you. we now have some sort of guideline to use - $6 of electricity to get the same number of btus found in a gallon of gas.

as i have continued to stress, it is not just the supply that counts. usage is just as important. when we use our cars, we utilitze 10-20% of the energy burned. whereas with hydrogen and electric motors, we utilize most all of it.

if you take the time to do the research, i will bet you dollars to donuts, that it doesnt cost us 5 times as much to get the hydrogen.

you are also not considering another HUGE POINT. you keep talking about what we can do with hydrogen at ITS INFANCY. and comparing it to petroleum. there is no room for improvement in the numbers regarding petroleum. there is AN OVERWHELMING HUMONGOUS POTENTIAL for improvement with hydrogen.

i will once again refer back to my car and buggy example. i have do doubts that there were many disadvantages to cars when they first came out. look at the two, now. would you still want to be driving around everywhere in a horse and carriage ?

the way to improve something is by doing it. we sure as heck aint gonna improve our hydrogen highway, if all we ever do is talk about it.

i think we will both see it occur. and i hope you look back on these discussions to see how short-sighted your arguments are. you are not even coming close to looking at the whole picture.

to me, this is really unfortunate. because if a smart person like you can still be easily duped by the petroleum industry, what does that say about the guy with an average intelligence ?

the masses have always been easily duped by the few who have the wealth and control. i would say that it gets better, but improvement is extremely slow.
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Old 10-18-2006, 09:57 PM   #117
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manco,

to be honest, i am scared of nuclear.

first, we would have this waste problem - what to do with this stuff that takes a century or more before it loses it's harmfulness.

second, wealthy people are greedy sobs. it would be just pie in the sky being naive to think that they wont cut corners on safety when it hurts their profits. and they will never run out of being able to find an inspector who can be bribed.

i would bet that these 2 concerns would cover just about everyone's worries, who are against nuclear power plants. we just dont want a chernobyl in our country.

and i just dont see any way to have nuclear without taking on that risk.

what people really need to start doing - is stop procreating like rabbits. all of these problems are a direct result of the world's increasing population trend.
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Old 10-18-2006, 10:42 PM   #118
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The way to improve something is to understand the problems that exist that stand in it's way. That's what I'm trying to show. I'm not against it, I'm just trying to show that it's easier said than done. For some of the challenges to getting to a hydrogen economy please read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroge...implementation
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Old 10-18-2006, 11:03 PM   #119
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hi manco,

as i said, i dont doubt that these problems exist. and guess what ? they will continue to exist until such time that the bigwigs actually want to sell us hydrogen.

and then it will be a whole other story.

i know you are not against hydrogen. in fact, i dont doubt you would like to see it come along tomorrow.

what concerns me, as i said earlier, is that i believe that you actually believe these hurdles are why we dont have hydrogen. and if you still believe that, i suspect that most americans can be led to believe that.

so it begins to sound like the heart association telling me how hard they are working to overcome heart disease, and all the problems that still exist.

the oil companies dont want to go to hydrogen any more than the heart association wants to find a cure for it. if we actually cured it, they would no longer get paid to "look" for it.

i can see that we arent too far apart. i would just categorize you as still one of the good little soldiers who actually believes that all "these problems" are why we arent using hydrogen yet ?

and i will continue to clamor about the real reason, for anyone who wants to listen. because this little hydrogen example is how the world works in everything, when it comes to anything political or financial.

things are never done for the good of the masses. they are done for the good of the wealthy. until we can make some changes to that, we will be forever doomed to have to live with it.

why do you think i am so adamant about removing the status quo from our political system ?
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Old 10-18-2006, 11:11 PM   #120
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The oil companies would be one of the major benefactors from the hydrogen economy because petroleum would be a major component in the production of it. They win either way from the way I see it.
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