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Old 10-18-2006, 11:17 PM   #121
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the oil companies pretty much own the energy industry. that is a far cry from being a major benefactor.

do not try to take 20 billion dollars away from a guy that has 100 billion. you never know, he may starve on what he has left.

i will be very surprised if the hydrogen highway comes to be and the oil industry does not own it, one way or the other. my hopes arent so grandiose as to get rid of them, just force them to give us what is best for our health, and environment. if we can accomplish that, we have really done something worthwhile and difficult.
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Old 10-19-2006, 02:44 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Manco
I think Capn wants the same thing as I do which is to break down where the energy comes from for creating the hydrogen. Obviously if it takes 48kW of power to generate 1 gallon of gasoline equivalent, then that energy has to come from somewhere.
That's exactly what I was getting at, Manco. Thank you.

It's not just nuclear power generation that has languished in the last 30 years. Oil refineries have not been built. Offshore drilling has been blocked. Oil drilling in god-forsaken places where the impact would be minimal has been fought against, tooth and nail.

Now, we are supposed to take a lot of electricity production and use it for splitting off hydrogen. How much excess capacity do you think there is, gym? I'll give you a hint: think of number less than one. Did you guess zero? You're right!

Hydrogen has great potential. But ignoring real obstacles won't get us any closer to adoption of hydrogen for everyday use.
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Old 10-19-2006, 11:50 PM   #123
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hi manco and cr,

well first, i am not IGNORING real obstacles. read what i have said again. the reason we currently have real obstacles is that the oil industry does not want to change. therefore we havent attempted to fix these real obstacles.

as i told manco, it is not that these problems are non-existent - rather the reason that they do exist is not because we cant fix them, it is because we dont want to fix them. BIG DIFFERENCE.

so let me get this straight. because of the tremendous energy efficiency difference, you will both stipulate that hydrogen will use less overall energy, and less petroleum. but despite these savings, replacing gas with hydrogen, will still cause us to use more electricity. and we are already at capacity to create electricity. so how do we get more ? is this the question you want me to address ?
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Old 10-20-2006, 10:05 AM   #124
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but despite these savings, replacing gas with hydrogen, will still cause us to use more electricity. and we are already at capacity to create electricity. so how do we get more ? is this the question you want me to address ?
Sort of.

Assuming everything you say is correct... heck, why not go even farther? Say that the net energy consumption drops 50% in the US, you still can't get there from here because we don't have the electricity production capacity to supply both consumer demand AND hydrogen production.

The technology for hydrogen vehicles is advancing rapidly, IMO. But you are advocating placing the burden of vehicular energy on a chronically overburdened electricity production industry. Then you get squeamish when someone suggests bolstering electricity production with nuclear plants, which haven't even made the drawing board yet.

If popular opinion follows yours, and in California I am fairly certain it does, hydrogen will always be a pipe dream.
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Old 10-20-2006, 10:42 AM   #125
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Gym,

You keep saying that it's the oil industry's fault that we don't have a hydrogen economy, but the real issue isn't that at all. The issue is we as a society need to approve the production of electricity using alternatives to fossil fuels. This most certainly would require Nuclear power plants to accomplish. Because you conveniently ignore that fact and oversimplify by saying it's the oil industry's fault, i think it hurts the credibility of your arguments. I'm an engineer by profession, and I learned a long time ago not to just talk about problems, but offer solutions to the problem. So I'm trying to get past the simple answers and look at what it would really take. Read the following excerpt and the entire website article for good insight into this issue:

Quote:
In the hydrogen economy, there is no storehouse to tap into. We have to actually create the energy in real-time.

There are two possible sources for the hydrogen:

* Electrolysis of water - Using electricity, it is easy to split water molecules to create pure hydrogen and oxygen. One big advantage of this process is that you can do it anywhere. For example, you could have a box in your garage producing hydrogen from tap water, and you could fuel your car with that hydrogen.

* Reforming fossil fuels - Oil and natural gas contain hydrocarbons -- molecules consisting of hydrogen and carbon. Using a device called a fuel processor or a reformer, you can split the hydrogen off the carbon in a hydrocarbon relatively easily and then use the hydrogen. You discard the leftover carbon to the atmosphere as carbon dioxide.

The second option is, of course, slightly perverse. You are using fossil fuel as the source of hydrogen for the hydrogen economy. This approach reduces air pollution, but it doesn't solve either the greenhouse gas problem (because there is still carbon going into the atmosphere) or the dependence problem (you still need oil).
http://people.howstuffworks.com/hydrogen-economy4.htm
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Old 10-21-2006, 03:12 AM   #126
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hi manco,

again, you are concentrating on the symptoms. i am simply telling you that these symptoms would be already cured, if that is what the oil industry actually wanted.

i was paid well to analyze situations, determine the problem, find a solution to the problem, program the solution, maintain that solution, while making it efficient and user-friendly. so i certainly am a problem solver.

i have no doubts that you are an excellent engineer. but i would say that you still need some fine-tuning regarding your understanding/acceptance of the system of how the world works, and how it is ultimately controlled by the big-wigs.

THOUGHT 1 ) you are assuming that everything you read about "the current problems" is accurate. i, on the other hand, am assuming that what we hear is what the oil companies want us to think.

THOUGHT 2 ) you want to contemplate fixing the problems, based upon the idea that you are privy to all the real data. i, on the other hand, dont think either one of us have a clue to the actual situation, because much of the real information is intentionally kept from us, hoping we will believe what we read.

THOUGHT 3 ) oil companies have been buying patents, and information for longer than we have been born.

THOUGHT 4 ) at a certain level of bigwiginess, i believe said bigwigs have a master plan, with regards to energy production. when i say master plan, i am thinking a century or longer. they have plans on how to control that industry for a very long time.

THOUGHT 5 ) it has been mentioned that we are at a high end to our electricity generation capacity. here is a tidbit that actually occurred to me. because the environment is important to me, for several years i was paying a premium for my electricity. by doing so, i was promoting the production of elctricity from clean sources. while my bill was higher, the amount that i was paying edison was lower, because now a portion of it went to some company back east, that was using clean energy sources. edison, by way of threatening a lawsuit, was finally able to get rid of that system, and they could no longer provide clean energy to california. again, big industry protecting its monopoly. instead of being thrilled that its maximum production capacity was being helped out by this green company, they were able to stop the practice completely. so perhaps my thought process about the bigwigs controlling their monopolies is not some crazy theory. and perhaps we are not at as much of a "maximum capacity" as we are being told ? sorta like the oil crises of the 70s, when we were gonna run out ? gosh, 30 years later, and not only havent we run out, we are fighting wars to make sure of its stability.

THOUGHT 6 ) the real electrical genius was not thomas edison, but rather nikola tesla. edison bought out tesla, and it is thought that many patents and ideas were shelved, because edison could not find a way to sell it to the public.

THOUGHT 7 ) you are assuming that the goal is to create an energy system that is best for the people. i, on the other hand, am assuming that any system that comes out is based first on the goal of how it can be profitably sold to the people.

THOUGHT 8 ) no matter how good something may seem to be, those that own the gold, will make sure that it does not see the light of day, until and unless said something is more profitable to the gold-owners than the thing that it is replacing.

THOUGHT 9 ) if the oil companies really did have a major catastrophe, and could no longer sell us oil, you would be surprised at how some things would just "magically" be discovered, and soon be ready to use.
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Old 10-21-2006, 08:47 AM   #127
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again, you are concentrating on the symptoms. i am simply telling you that these symptoms would be already cured, if that is what the oil industry actually wanted.
The oil industry like most industries are primarily driven by return on investment. Implementing the hydrogen economy will cost a whole bunch of money to implement. Assuming the oil industry picked up the costs, would they get a good return on that investment when there is cheap oil that can be pulled out of the ground instead?

Quote:
i have no doubts that you are an excellent engineer. but i would say that you still need some fine-tuning regarding your understanding/acceptance of the system of how the world works, and how it is ultimately controlled by the big-wigs.
I realize there are big wig forces at work, however I don't think we can blame them for the lack of the hydrogen economy. I think there are other more practical economic reasons that it doesn't exist yet.

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THOUGHT 1 ) you are assuming that everything you read about "the current problems" is accurate. i, on the other hand, am assuming that what we hear is what the oil companies want us to think.
I'm sure what I read isn't 100% accurate, but I doubt it's 100% false either. I'm guessing that it's closer to 80% or higher accurate. Most of what I have read I seriously doubt was written by the Oil Industry.

Quote:
THOUGHT 2 ) you want to contemplate fixing the problems, based upon the idea that you are privy to all the real data. i, on the other hand, dont think either one of us have a clue to the actual situation, because much of the real information is intentionally kept from us, hoping we will believe what we read.
This is too conspiracy theory for me. I think we can analyze the situation compared to what is written to determine whether it makes sense. For instance the power outages in California over the last several years I think were real.

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THOUGHT 3 ) oil companies have been buying patents, and information for longer than we have been born.
Yes they have but that doesn't mean that they have stopped the hydrogen economy by such activity.

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THOUGHT 4 ) at a certain level of bigwiginess, i believe said bigwigs have a master plan, with regards to energy production. when i say master plan, i am thinking a century or longer. they have plans on how to control that industry for a very long time.
Maybe, but in a capitalistic society, the big wig oil companies have not be able too stop wind or solar power development. They haven't even been able to stop Nuclear power development.

Quote:
THOUGHT 5 ) it has been mentioned that we are at a high end to our electricity generation capacity. here is a tidbit that actually occurred to me. because the environment is important to me, for several years i was paying a premium for my electricity. by doing so, i was promoting the production of elctricity from clean sources. while my bill was higher, the amount that i was paying edison was lower, because now a portion of it went to some company back east, that was using clean energy sources. edison, by way of threatening a lawsuit, was finally able to get rid of that system, and they could no longer provide clean energy to california. again, big industry protecting its monopoly. instead of being thrilled that its maximum production capacity was being helped out by this green company, they were able to stop the practice completely. so perhaps my thought process about the bigwigs controlling their monopolies is not some crazy theory. and perhaps we are not at as much of a "maximum capacity" as we are being told ? sorta like the oil crises of the 70s, when we were gonna run out ? gosh, 30 years later, and not only havent we run out, we are fighting wars to make sure of its stability.
You can buy green tags to subsidize clean power on your own if you desire. We are close to capacity as you should know based upon peak power shortages in the Summer months in California.

As to the 70's oil crisis we had shortages because of foreign political reasons, not because there was risk of running out of natural resource.

Quote:
THOUGHT 6 ) the real electrical genius was not thomas edison, but rather nikola tesla. edison bought out tesla, and it is thought that many patents and ideas were shelved, because edison could not find a way to sell it to the public.
I think it's safe to say both were geniuses. I suspect most of what Tesla learned has been utilized in one way or another, even if it's in secret by the US Gov't.

Quote:
THOUGHT 7 ) you are assuming that the goal is to create an energy system that is best for the people. i, on the other hand, am assuming that any system that comes out is based first on the goal of how it can be profitably sold to the people.
No, I'm assuming that if it were profitable and provided a good return on investment, then it would be developed. Capitalism likes ROI and will seek it out.

Quote:
THOUGHT 8 ) no matter how good something may seem to be, those that own the gold, will make sure that it does not see the light of day, until and unless said something is more profitable to the gold-owners than the thing that it is replacing.
If "New Company" could make hydrogen a less costly alternative to Gasoline, then New Company would be created. But it isn't that simple because the infrastructure required crosses many political and economic boundries. I agree if the oil companies could make money at it they could be doing it, but would only be doing it if it were likely to provide a better ROI than oil.

Quote:
THOUGHT 9 ) if the oil companies really did have a major catastrophe, and could no longer sell us oil, you would be surprised at how some things would just "magically" be discovered, and soon be ready to use.
I agree necessity is the mother of invention. But it wouldn't happen overnight. We would first have a serious economic crisis that would rival the depression years.

I sense from your response that you are relying too heavily on conspiriacies and other intangibles rather than the facts. The fact is it takes energy to produce Hydrogen, and that energy has to be generated. The electricity required can be generated from Oil, Coal, Nuclear, Hydro electric, solar, wind etc. Regardless of which method you choose, the power generation capacity would need to be increased by building more power plants. I don't see how you can ignore this fact.
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Old 10-21-2006, 03:06 PM   #128
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Gym,

Let's assume your argument is correct that the Oil industry is preventing the Hydrogen Economy. What specifically are they doing to prevent it? Let's suppose they get completely out of the way, how does it come together after that?
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Old 10-21-2006, 07:25 PM   #129
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hi manco,

i cant give you specific answers, since i believe much of the information is kept hidden from us. in this way, technology can be dribbled out to us, when it suits them.

we at least agree on that point - that industries are interested in their bottom line.

when i say "oil companies", that probably also includes the electricity industry, because that is a pretty big supplier of energy.

i believe much is still hidden with regards to tesla. he had shown a way to transmit electricity through the air, somehow. he may have been one of those extremely gifted people, like an archimedes.

industries protect their ability to make profit. it is not just about their bottom line, but how well can they control the industry. because control means everything. the oil companies can literally lower and raise the cost of gasoline any time they want, and they do so. we are all held captive. the same goes true for edison. we dont know whether these blackouts are really needed.

think what may be today, had the oil companies gone after hydrogen 50 years ago.

i cant give you specific details. but if i was god, and knew everything that was known in both the oil and electricity worlds - i suspect that there are ways of providing energy needs that would surprise both of us. but my goal would simply be to help the people - give them a system that was best for them - supplying them with needed energy, as well as protecting the environment in which they live. this is not even close to the goal of the system that delivers us energy today.

i know you want to assume that basically what you read is the truth, and that you are trying to solve the electricity capacity problem that you believe that we have. i believe very little about what comes out of the mouths of politicians, ceos, etc. so little, that i couldnt tell you what they say, because i already know that it is worthless.
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Old 10-21-2006, 07:34 PM   #130
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manco,

we have different life perceptions. this is why you vote, and i dont.

you are of the belief that you can change the system or make it better, by casting your vote. you examine each issue in detail as an engineer would do, and then make your decision.

i was once of that mold. i got wiser.

if we the people want to make our system better, we need to get completely rid of the system we have today, because that system's goal is to do what is best for the people that really run the system.

the exact same analogy applies here, in our hydrogen discussion. you are viewing "the facts as presented to you", as pretty much the gospel truth. and then trying to make wise decisions about them.

i dont believe them. i have seen too many times where our govt (which is run by the wealthy and the system) do what is necessary for themselves, contrary to what is good for the people.
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Old 10-22-2006, 12:35 AM   #131
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manco,

let me put it another way. any time you have a large financial interest, whether it be a politician reporting on something, a large business ceo, etc. - there are ALMOST ALWAYS two stories.

one is the real story of what they are trying to accomplish. the other is the story that is used to sell it to their constituents, employees, the masses, etc.

the oil companies have bought out all sorts of stuff. they dont use it. it is simply bought, so it cant come to market. when cars had carbeurators, never did we see a 100 mpg carb on a car. so it is obvious to me that whatever the oil companies tell me, i know for sure that isnt the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

as an analogy, i liken it to most everyone swimming in the ocean, politicians telling us that if we just do such and such, we can find some fresh water. so we diligently study everything, cast our vote - and we ALWAYS end up swimming in salt water. of course we do. there is no fresh water in the ocean. as we go through stages in life, some of us begin to realize that if we ever want fresh water, we need to get out of the ocean, and into an actual fresh water lake. but few people learn this, and by the time they do, they are fairly old - with a gazillion new people who havent yet learned it. so there are always far, far, far more people in the ocean than there is in the lakes. and because of that, us lake swimmers do have to swim in the ocean at times, because there are some things that can only be found in the ocean. and this will remain true, until people in masses start learning that they cant really find what they are looking for in the ocean - and then start swimming in the lakes, as well. i have hopes that at some point we will have many lake swimmers, but i dont suspect i will get to see it in my lifetime.
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Old 10-22-2006, 03:39 AM   #132
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Gym, I know where you are coming from, but I guess I'm trying to get back to a facts based discussion. I'll even let you use the facts you know.

I thought I asked a fairly simple question that would cut to the heart of the matter but didn't see an answer. Assume the oil commpanies get out of the way of the development of the hydrogen economy (I'm assuming you think they are stopping it from happening). How does it materialize? I also assume if there is money to be made and a good ROI, that it will happen. What needs to happen in order to get to this point? We already have much technology for hydrogen fuel cells, but the issue is hydrogen generation and delivery. The generation is the biggest issue since it takes energy to actually separate the hydrogen out of other molecules such as water. The amount of energy is significant. I have not seen you adequately address the energy requirements to get all of the hydrogen necessary to run most of our cars. Let's just suppose that the demand for electricity would double to handle the shift to hydrogen, do you really think we have the capacity to meet that demand? If not, how do you propose we generate enough electricity to meet the demand?
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Old 10-22-2006, 11:43 AM   #133
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manco,

i thought i did answer your question.

you want to have a discussion about "the facts as they have been presented to us". i simply said that i dont believe those facts.

i dont know what the "real facts" are.

i suspect i am nowhere near as knowledgeable about "the presented facts" as you are, since i put very little value to them. so i am not gonna be able to hold up my end of the discussion with you, in that regard.

do i believe that the current system may have the limitations of which you are knowledgeable ? sure.

do i believe there are better choices, if given all the info that is known ? absolutely.

can i tell you what it is ? of course not, that is the why it is hidden from us. we are given information, such that we will make the desired conclusions.

here is a simple analogy. assume you are a contractor. you are asked to give a bid on building a house. i am not a contractor, so i dont have the knowledge to talk about how much you should bid to build that house. i simply just tell you that if you had all the knowledge, your bid would end up differently.

so just assume that for whatever reason, the invention of the speed gun nailer had been kept from the public. that technology was bought and shelved, so as not to make it to the public awareness.

would you be able to build that house faster, if you had awareness and access to the speed guns ? of course.

what i am saying is that if the energy industry gave us all the info about their speed guns, i believe we would have ways of providing enough energy to the public in an environmentally friendly way. what is the energy industry's speed guns ? if i could answer that, then said information would no longer be hidden.
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Old 10-26-2006, 02:43 PM   #134
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Hey, gym. Don't give up the battle.

It must seem like RoadClosed, Manco, and I are ganging up on you, and to an extent it is true. But we aren't anti-hydrogen. We are pro-real-world. We're pragmatists who understand that no amount of wishful thinking will make large-scale vehicular utilization of hydrogen as fuel a reality. It will take determination, time, and money.

Determination will come from people like you, assuming you don't burn out after being slapped down a few hundred times by the pragmatists. Hopefully, you will convert a few souls along the way, and they will have their own converts. You're going to need numbers in the hundreds of thousands or millions to buy into it, or it will fall along the way like electric cars.

Time, if you don't believe the 'imminent doom' crowd, is there. 'The Day After Tomorrow' robs us of our will by stealing time from us. Instead of having pride in our house and fixing it up, we think 'I ain't gonna be around much longer... No time to fix the ceiling, nor time to fix the floor.'

Money doesn't come from nowhere. You repeatedly blame Big Oil for derailing hydrogen. Isn't there a possibility that we haven't given Big Oil a real incentive for developing hydrogen and other alternative energy sources? If you insist on seeing Big Oil as greedy for making record profits, shouldn't we also look on the Government as also being greedy for taking their share in taxes?

The technology seems to be coming along, but the infrastructure isn't even a ghost of a skeleton (Happy Halloween!) right now.

Tell you what. You find a company that is buying out of business gas stations and converting them to hydrogen stations and I'll invest in them. Deal?

In the meantime, keep posting any articles you find that show hydrogen is coming closer to reality. That one on powder hydrogen was great!
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:59 AM   #135
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hi cr,

i dont think you guys are ganging up on me, at all. we are having good discussions. and i would never agree with you, unless i agreed with you. i dont expect anything differently from any of you.

i already know that none of you are against hydrogen. in fact, i know that you are for it, in the long run.

your comment about govt sharing the blame ? you should already know that i would agree with that, simply because the govt is controlled by the wealthy.

what most people dont realize is how the system works. he who owns the gold, makes the rules.

so absolutely, i believe that "the benefitters of oil" is why we are still in the oil economy.

if we could somehow get a govt that was not controlled by the wealthy, then many, many things would change for the betterment of the people. in order to do this, we at least need to get reps and dems unelected. of course that doesnt mean that other people would not eventually succumb to bribes from the wealthy, that they would certainly get. but i have hopes that we could at least make some inroads. i do my part in this, by not voting. much of texas has followed that same lead, and now we have an independent, kinky friedman, who definitely has a good shot.

you guys are examining the system today, as you see it. as i told manco, i suspect that you guys are much more knowledgeable about the actual details than i am. but what i am saying is that the system you are seeing is basically controlled by the powers-to-be. they will create a system, by which people will make conclusions just like the powers-to-be want you to conclude.

this is why i am not interested in the details of today.

as an analyst, my job was to analyze the problem, design a solution, create the solution, maintain the solution, and make sure it was user friendly and efficient. but the real goal was to actually improve the company's system.

the real goal here, is to please the powers-to-be.

as i said, if i could have the real details, i think we would all be interested in creating solutions, and i strongly believe that you guys would be coming up with viable solutions, because now you would have all the tools available to you - instead of just giving you only the tools such that you would come up with some pre-desired conclusions.

the oil companies have bought out all sorts of patents. when cars used carbeurators, many 100 mpg carbs were bought out. and they were shelved, since no car line ever had them on. so they are not buying these things as a way to sell and make money. they simply did not want this technology to ever see the light of day.

so my thought of them controlling the industry in other ways is not even a radical one. we already know that they have done it. in fact, just the opposite. it is so likely, that the burden of proof would be on you guys that they are not controlling it, like i say they are.

of course, that would be next to impossible for you guys to prove, since all their shenanigans are well-hid, no doubt.
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