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Old 09-05-2005, 12:46 AM   #1
gymeejet
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Default Hydrogen

hi all,

joker and i were having an interesting discussion about hydrogen cars. he was telling me some stuff that seemed to be a bit different from what i had heard before. so i wanted to do some research, to see if we could come up with some more definite answers.

please all of you join in, if you want.

http://sln.fi.edu/inquirer/hydrocar.html

hi joker,

here is a first article to talk about. it talks about that same process that i was attempting to tell you about, with regards to the hydrogen process. i knew it had something to do with hydrogen passing thru some grid, and electrons.

from what i am reading, is it correct that this is actually some sort of electric motor ? it seems to say as much.

"The product is a hydrogen-powered car that uses an absolutely non-polluting fuel and an electric motor for power."

"All the electrons are collected and sent through a wire. That stream of electrons is electricity, which can be used to power a motor."

this is probably why we were speaking different languages.

now, my impression is that they think that hydrogen will first be used as fuel in combustion, but that is not its final stage.

anyways, this article has some links that i want to peruse.

forgetting about the cost, as we no doubt will bring that way down, what is your opinion of the basic technology ? to me, it does seem to be the end all.
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Old 09-05-2005, 12:55 AM   #2
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Default hydrogen and fuel cell letter

http://www.hfcletter.com/

some very interesting headlines, but you must be a subscriber to read them.

however, we should be able to find this same stuff in other publications.
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Old 09-05-2005, 01:16 AM   #3
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some more interesting reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_car

hydrogen, used as an internal combustion engine, is not that interesting, nor that helpful - other than it may serve as a beginning point. it is the fuel cell technology that is especially illuminating.
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Old 09-05-2005, 01:53 AM   #4
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Default the hypercar

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...Vhypercar.html
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Old 09-05-2005, 01:59 AM   #5
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Default hydrogen car in akron, ohio ?

http://www.wkyc.com/galleries/galler...y.asp?id=39339
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Old 09-05-2005, 02:05 AM   #6
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<Pee Wee Herman>
If you love the hydrogen car so much, why don't you marry it?
</Pee Wee Herman>

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Old 09-05-2005, 08:49 AM   #7
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The fundamenatal question remains. How do you make the hydrogen.? You need electricity to make hydrogen--lots of it--It's not an efficient process as it currently stands. So one can make electricity from fossile fuels, nuclear power, or perhaps in the future we will be able to more broadly use renewables like water, wind, and sun. It is here that we must also focus our attention.

Other thoughts aside from hydrogen--natural gas cars may be something of an alternative. They are available. Range is limited but they don't pollute too much and still use a fossil fuel.

There is someone out there who claims that freewheel technology will allow over 100 mpg. Hybrids may yet improve especially if people allow a bit of a drop in performance. Clean diesel or even diesel hybrid may be something to consider.

On a proactical level, before we see a wholesale switch to hydrogen cars I think we will need to see improvement in current combustion technology.

UB
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Old 09-06-2005, 11:32 AM   #8
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I can see a host of problems with this. It's not just the technology... The oil companies (the big, rich oil companies with hot and cold running lawyers and lobbiests) are going to want a big piece of this pie, or they will sit on it.

Even if the Oil Corps. didn't manipulate the process, there is the free enterprise system in general (unless you want the Gov. to step in, and you know how great they are at solving problems and getting things done). Politics will be involved. The military will want some buy-in. Foreign countries will demand that the US bear the majority of the burden, then do their best to screw us out of the benefits.

In short, getting hydrogen-powered cars on the roads isn't just a matter of developing that one technology, but, IMO, changing the world.

Good luck!
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Old 09-06-2005, 11:34 AM   #9
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Default Honda Delivers FCX Fuel Cell Vehicle to World’s First Pers

http://world.honda.com/news/2005/4050629.html
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Old 09-06-2005, 11:50 AM   #10
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hi cr,

i believe that if it weren't for the oil companies, we would already be driving hydrogen cars, so i certainly agree with you on that one.

also, let's not forget about the auto parts industry and the auto mechanics industry, as is evidenced by the following quote -

"Utilizing space technology, the hydrogen car doesn't rely on combustion. And it has hardly any moving parts."

me again - in other words, it will be a helluva lot cheaper for us consumers, in terms of maintenance costs.
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Old 09-06-2005, 03:23 PM   #11
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Hydrogen cars are bullshit. Hydrogen is acquired mainly in two ways. You either extract it from hydrocarbons and result in a lot of carbons going into the air, or you split water which requires a lot of electricity which results in more coal-burning plants. That completely removes all the benefits of the "clean" fuel.

Then add in that hyrdogen leaks a lot and turns steel into brittle. How exactly do you contain that inside a car.

Why in the hell can anyone think this is a GOOD idea for cars? There has to be some company lined up to get make money from this, because it makes no sense.
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Old 09-07-2005, 12:46 AM   #12
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hi guys,

i have heard the complaints about the cost of getting the hydrogen.

"Most commercial hydrogen is made as part of the processing of natural gas. As a fuel it is about 20 percent more expensive than a comparable amount of gasoline."

"The third "problem" is due to the fact that while hydrogen can be used as an energy carrier, it is not an energy source. It still must be produced from fossil fuels, or from some other energy source, with a net loss of energy (since the conversion from energy to hydrogen storage and back to energy is not 100% efficient). But Hydrogen is nearly twice as efficient than traditional combustion engines, which only have an efficiency of 15-25%. Hydrogen has a thermodynamic efficiency of 50-60%."

above quotes are from the articles that i posted.

it may cost us 20% more to get the hydrogen, but our savings on the backend range anywhere from 200% to 400%, depending on which numbers you want to use (i.e. 15-60 or 25-50).

that is an astronomical savings. and we are comparing one industry in its experimental state with another industry that is 100 years old. after hydrogen has been around for 20 years in production, the savings would go from astronomical to GAStronomical.

and we have not even counted in these stats the lack of maintenance savings, the health savings by not emitting pollutants, etc.

it seems like a literal no-brainer. EXCEPT IT HURTS THOSE WHO MAKE BIG PROFITS NOW.

of course you guys already know how i feel about the status quo and their wealth.
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:52 AM   #13
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I don't think the efficiency or costs, in and of themselves are going to be the biggest price obsticle. I am dubious about the scale. Getting hydrogen as a byproduct of natural gas production sounds fine, but how much NG is there left? Unless vast, new sources are developed, NG will probably be depleated long before efficient, affordable hydrogen-powered vehicles are available.

I like that description of hydrogen 'as an energy carrier'. I wonder about the numbers, though.

As far as wealth goes, if I had a choice between being rich and being like by you... Hate me, baby! Ah, well. I think I am destined to be unhated for some time to come.
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Old 09-07-2005, 10:41 AM   #14
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hi cr,

i dont think ng is the only way we can get hydrogen - just the way that was described. and perhaps the best way, for right now.
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Old 09-08-2005, 03:12 AM   #15
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Default Hydrogen powered fuel cells

http://www.hydrogen.anl.gov/fuelcells/
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