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Old 11-12-2005, 01:45 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
well, if i recall from the bible, god is described as the "light of the world".
That argument only makes sense if you believe that the bible is the Truth.

And if you believe the bible, then you'd have to believe all the stuff about the Old Testament god "speaking" to Abraham and all that...and light certainly cannot speak...

Somewhere else in the bible, I think Jesus is called a lamb. Does that mean that he walked around on four legs and "baa"'ed? No.
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Old 11-13-2005, 02:55 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
well, if i recall from the bible, god is described as the "light of the world".
That argument only makes sense if you believe that the bible is the Truth.

And if you believe the bible, then you'd have to believe all the stuff about the Old Testament god "speaking" to Abraham and all that...and light certainly cannot speak...

Somewhere else in the bible, I think Jesus is called a lamb. Does that mean that he walked around on four legs and "baa"'ed? No.
hi amnesia,

as you probably know, i think of the ot as basically a biased jewish history book, and the nt as the philosophy of jesus. however, that does not mean that i think the whole ot is patently false, nor that the the whole nt is absolutely true.

since human hands were involved in the nt, i dont claim that there is no chance for error in it. and i suspect there are certain truths in the ot.

so one would not have to believe that the whole ot or nt is true, to believe that a certain statement could be true.

the point about the lamb is strictly symbolic. "light" is also a symbol, in the sense that god helps "illuminate" our lives.

but that does not mean that "light" could not also be some sort of a physical presence of god. remember that i did not say that i thought that light was god - rather a footstep, or perhaps a shadow.

and again, i just said "might".

at least in our frame of reference and ability to measure, light and time do seem to have some sort of relationship. perhaps the "singularity" was an aspect of god, and is continuing to manifest itself to us, as our universe continues to expand.

it is only stuff that we can conjecture upon, though. so as a non-believer, i realize that you probably think it is all a bunch of silliness. and i certainly respect your right to think that, if indeed you do.
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Old 11-13-2005, 08:49 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by gymeejet
at least in our frame of reference and ability to measure, light and time do seem to have some sort of relationship. (...)
it is only stuff that we can conjecture upon, though. so as a non-believer, i realize that you probably think it is all a bunch of silliness.
My issue wasn't with the "silliness" of the underlying idea, but rather with the silliness of the thought that the bible would be used to bolster one's belief in the notion of "god" as light.

If light is indeed the essense of a supernatural creator, the bible certainly missed the mark. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to reference the bible in order to try to strengthen your case for god-as-light.
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Old 11-13-2005, 10:23 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Amnesia
If light is indeed the essense of a supernatural creator, the bible certainly missed the mark. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to reference the bible in order to try to strengthen your case for god-as-light.
i must say that i can not reply to this, because as of yet, i dont understand where you are coming from. how does the bible certainly miss the mark ?

also, are we using the word "essence" differently ? when i see it, i am thinking of one of the most important qualities of something - certainly something much more important than a footstep or a shadow.
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Old 11-13-2005, 07:20 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i must say that i can not reply to this, because as of yet, i dont understand where you are coming from. how does the bible certainly miss the mark ?
I'm saying that if a supernatural creator exists, either it is "light" or not.

If light is the creator and vice versa, then the bible is incorrect (since it describes many actions which light does not do, such as communicate directly with humans).
If the bible is correct, then the creator is not light.

If you think that perhaps the creator is light, then it does not make sense to use the bible to bolster your case, since your very belief is inconsistent with 99% of that book.
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Old 11-13-2005, 07:59 PM   #186
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i see.

no, i dont think that the creator is light. i believe that the creator is an entity, while light is an energy.

however, i would not rule out that this energy/light emanates from the creator.

maybe similar to the rush of the wind i might feel from you as you went racing by. you are not the wind, but its effect at that moment is being caused by you.
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Old 11-14-2005, 01:12 PM   #187
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It is interesting how just a thought over a brewski can coalesce into philosophy, physics, and religion.
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:26 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by iloveit
If God does exist he is doing a lousy job of running the place. Give anyone I know the powers God is suppose to have and they would definately do a better job!

One thing for sure, prayer is worthless except for making people feel better.
you are making an incorrect step in logic - there is no tie-in between the existence of god and whether god is running the place.

did you ever think about the possibility that because god has given us free will, he has relinquished the running of the planet to its inhabitants ?
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Old 11-17-2005, 01:30 PM   #189
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[
mega parsecs are just a way to reduce measurement into understandable terms. They are really really big distances. Like it's easier to say 1 AU, which is an astronomical unit (the mean distance between the earth and the sun), versus 149,598,000 Kilometers. In a nutshell.... the Hubble constant states the universe is expanding at x amount, which is those mega parsecs of distance. And to my knowledge it is based on million year time slices. That is why I said universe expansion is constant for the purpose of calculation.
the problem i have with this is that these things are all measured from our our point of view, not from the "universe's point of view".

2 motionless bodies could be moving apart from one another at a speed greater than light (or rather their respective positions).
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Old 11-17-2005, 06:26 PM   #190
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True. Perspective is every thing. Within our perspective of objects moving around out galaxy. Non can move faster or even at the speed of light. But space between objects such as the space between us (the Milky way) and another object, say the Adromeda galaxy - can expand faster than light. Especially given the velocities at wich they travel and the further away each object is the fast we percieve them moving.
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Old 11-19-2005, 03:04 AM   #191
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it may be that this is as much as we will ever learn about the universe.

but that piece of information seems somewhat useless, if one's search is to understand the universe, and not our viewpoint on it.

take any radial expansion speed you want. lets take 1 foot a second - pretty slow, right.

well if the sphere is large enough, (i.e. the radius of the sphere is long enough), then observers could measure galaxies moving away from one another at faster than the speed of light.

with the information that we have, and the vantage point that is forced upon us, i am not at all convinced that we have any idea how large the universe is, or how fast the universe itself is expanding.
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Old 11-21-2005, 01:05 PM   #192
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I disagree, we do know how fast the universe is expanding and it's very precise. Its not just a guess gymeejet. Understanding the perception, that is your "relative" position effects your ability to measure or see something is not useless. In fact is is important. It does effect what we understand. For instance light, you travel out beyond our local star cluster it's kind of important to know that while perhaps 100 years go by on your clock.... a few thousand will go by back on teraforma. It is not just your perception, it is your relative position and velocity in space. If you are moving near light speed for instance, you will not perceive the extra acceleration happening as space itself expands. It may not even effect you over a short distance but over a long distance say the entire distance between the milky way and Andromeda, it could have a huge impact, but only if you happen to exist in that space. No it's an important aspect of understanding. And since we are stuck out here in a single spiral arm of our galaxy, we are limited a bit in what we can perceive. What happens for instance when we get half way around the galactic core? Our perception of the universe will definitely change, but we will never know since we'll be gone and the earth could be a new place from what we understand. Civilizations crumble and even whole species face extintion at times.
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Old 11-21-2005, 09:13 PM   #193
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hi rc,

i think you misunderstood. i dont say that it is not important for us, in our vantage point. it may even be helpful to us in ways.

but please reread my previous post. it tells us nothing about the universe, from an unbiased perspective. like i said, no matter how slow the radial expansion, if the universe is sufficiently large, then relative positions can move away from each other at post-light speeds.

so knowing hubble's constant, etc. does not tell us about our universe, but rather our universe from our vantage point. even einsteins relativity does the same thing.

most people do not realize this - but einsteins laws do not mean that things are shortened or time is lessened. it depicts mathematical language, such that irregardless of the reference point, we can all use the same equations for our individual measurements.

going fast, the ruler does not actually shorten, and the second does not actually shorten. it only shortens for those people who are in the relative position of going very fast with regards to the ruler. those people who are in the same relative viewpoint as the ruler, still measure it to be a foot long.

so for the people moving at near-light speed - are their measurements helpful to them in their vantage point ? probably. does it tell them better about the ruler ? no - it actually tells them worse, because it gives them a more incorrect version of the actual object.

i am interested in the universe, as the actual object - not as to what it appears to be from a biased vantage point.

i will make some posts about my own original thought experiments when i have more time, but i will say that i suspect that the knowledge that i am most interested in (as described above) is NOT ATTAINABLE EVER. the most that we may be able to do is be correct from our vantage point.

i will try to explain that with my thought experiments.
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:53 PM   #194
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okidokie


But Einstein didn't make any laws. BTW when traveling near light speed, time doesn't slow down. The universe doesn't change. But it appears to slow down for those traveling. Or when you are having fun, time goes by quickly but when you are waiting for the bus or stuck in traffic time drags on and on. But the actual universe and the passage of time are constant in the context that an hour went by either slow or fast depending on your perception. More on time and Einstein later.
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Old 11-22-2005, 02:18 PM   #195
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God may exist, but it isn't like the one in the 100 different religions this planet has. I go to church about once every 2 years. It always makes me laugh how serious some people take it.
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