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Old 11-23-2005, 01:00 PM   #196
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I laugh at people who drive minivans. Those who go to church, not so much. Anymore than I laugh at someone who thinks the alignment of the stars tells them to ask that special person out on a date because it's the "right" time, or the position of the stars during my birth effect anything. Could the people on this board believe I am Virgo? lol.
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Old 11-29-2005, 09:21 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by iloveit
If God does exist he is doing a lousy job of running the place. Give anyone I know the powers God is suppose to have and they would definately do a better job!

One thing for sure, prayer is worthless except for making people feel better.

just got back from partying in san diego. cool place and cool to see we r still talking about god. i'm not here to try to tell u what to believe.we all have free will to believe what we want.

like myself i don't listen to people who say that i should not smoke some bud after work. probably because i'm open minded. sometimes being open minded is good. sometimes its not.

if a stoner can get it anyone can get it. i'm sure all of my cool sirius friends will eventually get it when its time if u want to. the power of prayer is real. everyone one of us has sinned and everyone will die. When we pray we are enlisting the power of God, which has no equal. Sin is no match for grace. While our sins can affect others in a negative way, they can also be the occasion of conversion experiences. The only reason that God allows evil to exist is that it can occasion a greater good.
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Old 12-07-2005, 02:10 AM   #198
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okay rc,

here are my original thoughts, as i promised.

lets start out talking about the flatlanders.

imagine you have a cylinder. you start filling it with water. the cross-section of the cylinder is a circle. take any cross-section. it started out as a singularity at the bottom point.

as this 2-dimensional circle flows upward through 3-dimensional space, it expands in all directions. the flatlanders living on this surface area have no knowledge of the third dimension they are travelling through. but it is not important to them in terms of being able to understand their own universe. while at some point it may be expanding too fast for them to ever reach an edge, it does have an edge. and while it may be impossible for them to ascertain its exact center, it does have one. and their surface is completely flat, so it encompasses nothing else. there is nothing in their universe that is not understandable.

they also would feel time, as there would be events on their universe just as there is on ours.
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Old 12-07-2005, 02:15 AM   #199
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now lets take the 3-dimensional comparison of that.

blow up a balloon. the volume continues to expand. but that sphere has an a center and edges. again we may not be able to ascertain or reach the center and edges, but they are there. everything within our universe is understandable.

now to make the analogy the same, our sphere would have to be travelling in the 4th spatial dimension of which we could never have any knowledge. but like the above flatlanders, it is not important to us understanding all about our own universe.
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Old 12-07-2005, 02:21 AM   #200
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now lets go again to the sphere, but lets take any 2-dimensional surface at any particular radius. as this 2-dimensional surface moves thru the 3rd spatial dimension, it expands in all directions.

all the flatlanders on this surface all see everything moving away from everything else. there does not seem to be any point of reference which is unique from any other point of reference.

this surface has no center point on the surface. nor does it have any edges. and this 2-dimensional surface is curved. it actually surrounds a 3-dimensional object.

the flatlanders can never reach the center, since the center actually resides in the 3rd dimension. nor can the flatlanders ever completely understand their own surface, since to do so would require them to have knowledge about up and down - which of course does not exist in their world.

so they will never completely understand their world. they may be able to use equations with time in them to help them understand their world from their point of perception, but no equations will ever tell them about the "volume" aspect of their world.

sorta sound familiar to what most scientists say about our universe ? no center, no edges, etc.
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Old 12-07-2005, 02:26 AM   #201
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now take our sphere again. but instead of being "flat", it is curved, so that it surrounds a 4th spatial dimension. we will have no better success coming to complete terms of our universe any more than the flatlanders living on a surface area of the expanding balloon.

and this is where science seems to be pointing us, at this point.

we are understanding our universe from our perspective, but i am afraid that may be the limit to what is possible for us to understand.

we can easily understand the flatlanders curved surface, for we are 3-dimensional. and perhaps some 4-dimensional beings are making the very same statements about us with regards to our limitations.

just how many actual dimensions are there ? who knows ? we are aware that there are 3. there could be an infinite amount. maybe there are only 3. we can only guess.
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Old 12-07-2005, 12:50 PM   #202
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You are preaching to the chior. I forgot what we were arguing about.

I argued that time and space are related. That space warps time etc. you seem to agree with that now? Especially using time as an actual dimension of the universe and calling it the 4th spatial dimension.

I could argue you you cannot curve the space of the flatlanders because then it would have dimension beyond the extreme limitation of their 2 dimensional world. Or that they could percieve a third dimension though not directly. But I won't, I totally agree with your perceptions.

I remember the flatlanders as presented by Sagan. Since they have not perception of depth, 3 dimensional objects would just pop into existence, much like a time traveler would if one were to suddenly travel back trough time and space to this spot right next to me.

//EDIT so what are we discussing, I forget. That there are things we can never know?
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:36 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
You are preaching to the chior. I forgot what we were arguing about.
my above thoughts were simply that. they were not about any one thing that we had been discussing

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
I argued that time and space are related. That space warps time etc. you seem to agree with that now? Especially using time as an actual dimension of the universe and calling it the 4th spatial dimension.
no, i dont think so. i am actually saying that i do not believe that time is the 4th spatial dimension. nor do i think that space warps time. however, i have always agreed with you that time and space have a relation. and i agree/think that because our ability to measure things is not instantaneous, that time definitely has an effect on our measurement limitations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
I could argue you you cannot curve the space of the flatlanders because then it would have dimension beyond the extreme limitation of their 2 dimensional world. Or that they could percieve a third dimension though not directly. But I won't, I totally agree with your perceptions.
this is a very important point, and a crux to my whole philosophy above. there is nothing really 2-dimensional in our world, even if we are talking about thicknesses of electrons. but we can build a construct. and within that construct, the curved surface of a sphere is every bit as 2-dimensional as the flat plane.

it seems obvious to us, because we are 3-dimensional. the 2-dimensional beings would not be able to discern this, although they may indeed have anomalies in their measurements that they are unable to explain, and while they dont know it for sure - they will never be able to explain it.

i am pointing out that we are seeming to arrive at these same types of conclusions in our 3-dimensional world. einstein went as far as saying that his 4-dimensional space time is curved by the matter in it. if it were not for matter, his 4-dimensional space time would be "flat".

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
I remember the flatlanders as presented by Sagan. Since they have not perception of depth, 3 dimensional objects would just pop into existence, much like a time traveler would if one were to suddenly travel back trough time and space to this spot right next to me.
i recall that. i cant say i agree or disagree with it.

Quote:
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//EDIT so what are we discussing, I forget. That there are things we can never know?
i dont think you ever said that you thought that everything was knowable. and i am not saying that all things are not knowable. i am simply saying that today's scientific evidence is leaning towards that, imo.

and if our 3-dimensional world does surround a 4th spatial dimension, then that is forever unknowable to us, just as the 2-dimensional guys on the surface of a sphere.
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:16 PM   #204
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Quote:
and if our 3-dimensional world does surround a 4th spatial dimension, then that is forever unknowable to us, just as the 2-dimensional guys on the surface of a sphere.
I would agree with you except all we have to do is accelerate fast enough and we break through its illusion. We know this and we understand it's effect. Time travel is nothing more than acceleration if you get down to the nitty gritty.

And on the quantum level we could break into unkown anomolies.

Thanks your taking the time to answer, interesting as always.
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:15 PM   #205
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hi rc,

i just dont see it that way. no matter how fast those 2-dimensional beings race around the sphere of the planet, they will never venture into the sphere. they always stay on their 2-dimensional surface.

likewise for us, imo.

i also dont see the link between acceleration and time travel. distance and time are 2 of the real physical things in our universe. speed and acceleration are merely our definitions of relations between distance and time.

nowhere does it make sense that we could "accelerate" into time travel.

in fact, time travel is a proven impossibility - that forever will be science fiction. if time is real (in the sense that it is something other than something created by the motion of matter), it only flows in one direction.

in fact, even if it was only that which was created by the motion of matter, it would still only flow in one direction. otherwise, the matter would be able to reverse its mode, and start traversing its steps of motion "backwards in time".

by going backwards in time, we make changes to something in the past, which would then change what we have today, thus giving us 2 separate "todays". i could go kill myself in the past. but then how would i be born. and if i was never born, how could i kill myself ?

it has the same zero probability as the universe having no beginning. for if it had no beginning, anything who also had no beginning would have to wait an infinite amount of time to be born. to disprove a theory, all you need is one piece of evidence. i am here today, and had a day of birth, so i know i have not been around forever. therefore, the universe had a beginning.
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Old 12-14-2005, 11:34 AM   #206
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I don't believe time travel is possible, sort of. But I believe it to be a dimension of space. Just like depth. We cannot touch it but we can percieve it and measure it and understand it's properties and when we send things about the solar system, time is a factor to place an object within say an orbit around Europa.

When I make a counter point I am not wholly disagreeing with you. For instance it is just as possible we could figure out the entire universe as it is we could be left blind to something. So I try and propose we already know there are extra dimensions even though we are flatlanders so I use time as and example because it is tangible.

Quote:
i just dont see it that way. no matter how fast those 2-dimensional beings race around the sphere of the planet, they will never venture into the sphere. they always stay on their 2-dimensional surface
.

This is where my time analogy breaks down. But I am using it as an example of traveling into a dimension we could never take part in. If we were to time travel we would pop from one point in our 3 dimensional world and pop into another point in our 3 dimensional world in a different slice of time. We in a sense traveled out of our 2 dimensional world into the 3rd dimension.

Quote:
also dont see the link between acceleration and time travel. distance and time are 2 of the real physical things in our universe. speed and acceleration are merely our definitions of relations between distance and time.

nowhere does it make sense that we could "accelerate" into time travel.
We are all moving in space. In fact gravity could be atributed to matter acceleration. We are moving all ways and forever. Took me a while to think up some experiment.

Take a room. You open the door and walk 4 feet across the carpet. You have moved 4 feet in a direction, the door has moved along with the room several hundred feet in space as the earth rotates and the planet had moved as well along its path around the sun and there is more movement as the sun and solar system move around the core of the galaxy. Thats alot of moving! And it's important.

Now turn and face the door. There was a period of time that it took you to get your 4 feet. Time ticked forward. Time always ticks forward. Even in time travel. Why? Chaos theory? Something in the Quantum? These things keep me awake at night.

Time travel is impossible because we cannot travel past the speed of light relative to other objects with mass. But that doesn't stop us from speculating about acceleration and go back a few microseconds in experiment. But I stated earlier time still flows in a single direction. So do we really go back or change our position in space relative?

More later, have a meeting.
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Old 12-18-2005, 01:31 AM   #207
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Religion is like satellite radio. It is easier to understand when you've used it for a while. People tell us about it and we fight it based on what we knew before but once we have it we keep it. We might let our subscriptions lapse from time to time or listen to the competition but we come back to it when the going gets rough.
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:36 AM   #208
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I wonder how many atheists out there are going to be foolish enough this week to celebrate the birth of someone who never existed?
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Old 12-21-2005, 07:50 AM   #209
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Quote:
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I wonder how many atheists out there are going to be foolish enough this week to celebrate the birth of someone who never existed?
not me. i don't celebrate any of that rediculousness.

that's right. no presents, no carols, no trees, no nothin.

and all of that is pagan ritual anyway. nothing to do with xmas, and I don't do it anyway. believe it, have faith that I don't cause I don't.
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:16 AM   #210
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I am an atheist I guess. And you know what MERRY FUCKING CHRISTmas! Jesus Christ did exist. Who can argue the otherwise? I don't think a scholar or historian alive or dead can argue otherwise successfully.
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