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Old 12-22-2005, 05:24 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by RoadClosed
I am an atheist I guess. And you know what MERRY FUCKING CHRISTmas! Jesus Christ did exist. Who can argue the otherwise? I don't think a scholar or historian alive or dead can argue otherwise successfully.
So what do you believe about Jesus Christ?
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Old 12-22-2005, 06:45 PM   #212
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He was a Jewish carpenter/philospher/cult leader who got executed (and stayed dead!)
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Old 12-22-2005, 09:47 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Amnesia
He was a Jewish carpenter/philospher/cult leader who got executed (and stayed dead!)
1) So Peter and all the others who claimed to have seen Jesus alive again allowed themselves to be executed (heads cut off, etc) because of something they knew they were lying about? Were they insane?

2) If Jesus didnt rise from the dead, why didnt the Romans just drag his dead body through the streets to show everyone and put a quick end to all those rumours? It would have been a quick way to end Christianity in a hurry.
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Old 12-22-2005, 10:09 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by linedrivehit
So Peter and all the others who claimed to have seen Jesus alive again allowed themselves to be executed (heads cut off, etc) because of something they knew they were lying about? Were they insane?
Well, let's look at the choices:
  1. They were insane. Certainly possible. There have been lots of insane people through the years.
  2. They saw something which they thought was Jesus magically still alive, but they were mistaken/fooled themselves into believing it, etc. Again, cerainly possible. Lots of people make mistakes and the more they tell themselves, the more they believe it.
  3. They knew they were lying, but believed that their sacrifice was worth it---they became martyrs for the cause. Again, possible. We know there have been people willing to die for their philosophical/religious beliefs.
  4. They really saw a zombie/diety. I would have to say this is by far the least likely of the possibilities. There is no evidence that any supernatural creatures exist.
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Old 12-22-2005, 10:22 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
So Peter and all the others who claimed to have seen Jesus alive again allowed themselves to be executed (heads cut off, etc) because of something they knew they were lying about? Were they insane?
Well, let's look at the choices:
  1. They were insane. Certainly possible. There have been lots of insane people through the years.
  2. They saw something which they thought was Jesus magically still alive, but they were mistaken/fooled themselves into believing it, etc. Again, cerainly possible. Lots of people make mistakes and the more they tell themselves, the more they believe it.
  3. They knew they were lying, but believed that their sacrifice was worth it---they became martyrs for the cause. Again, possible. We know there have been people willing to die for their philosophical/religious beliefs.
  4. They really saw a zombie/diety. I would have to say this is by far the least likely of the possibilities. There is no evidence that any supernatural creatures exist.
Your choices:

1) So they were ALL insane?

2) After spending three solid years with Jesus, you think they could not recognize what He looked like and mistook somebody else for Him?

3) Yes, people are willing to die for beliefs. Because they think they are right. But if Jesus didnt rise from the dead, these people would be dying for something they knew was wrong!

4) You are really reaching!

In fact, there is no real choice among your "choices". These men knew Jesus, claimed they saw Him alive again, and was willing to die for it.

By the way, you never answered the question about why the Romans didnt drag his body through the streets to end the rumors. Christianity would have ended before it started if they had done that.
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Old 12-22-2005, 10:45 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
3) Yes, people are willing to die for beliefs. Because they think they are right. But if Jesus didnt rise from the dead, these people would be dying for something they knew was wrong!
People can believe in the ideas of Jesus-as-philosopher without believing that he was some sort of magical zombie. They could have easily felt that dying for his philosophical beliefs were worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
4) You are really reaching!
Reaching? To say that people acted strangely---even in ways that we don't understand 2000 years later is a much, much more reasonable explanation than to believe in magic. All of my possibilities are at least possible. Magic is not.

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By the way, you never answered the question about why the Romans didnt drag his body through the streets to end the rumors. Christianity would have ended before it started if they had done that.
I don't know enough about the history to address that question. Perhaps some of Jesus's followers had taken the body to fuel speculation that he was magical.
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:35 PM   #217
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There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.

People that dont want to see will explain away, rationalize, and do anything to keep from having to accept the truth. Your explanations just aren't logical.

They believed in His philosphy so they make up a story about Him coming back alive and are willing to die for the lie.
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Old 12-23-2005, 12:25 AM   #218
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Quote:
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Your explanations just aren't logical.
Not logical?!?! And belief in magic and zombies is?

Logic says there is no magic. Logic says that in absence of additional information, you should accept the simpliest explanation. I've given you several explanations that don't resort to magical powers. Logic says that rational possibilities are much more likely than mythology made up thousands of years ago.

Remember David Koresh? What if some of his followers said that 3 days after Koresh died in Waco, he showed up at their place and said that he was divine and was going to heaven...and sure enough Koresh's body disappeared from the morgue. Would you then immediately start worshipping him (Him?) as a god? No, of course not. There are other, more rational explanations.

But logically, you should be much more willing to believe Koresh's followers since they could be interviewed and polygraphed and all that, right?
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Old 12-23-2005, 12:34 AM   #219
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And remember Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Even if Jesus's followers really did think they saw him rise from the grave, there are other explanations that I'd accept before magic and gods.

Like, say, time travel. Some future generation sent back someone with advanced technology who was able to fake death. Hey, it worked for Star Trek. Don't get me wrong---I'm not saying that I believe Jesus was a time traveller. All I'm saying is that if my choice is time traveller or god, I'll go for time travel.

Or aliens. I think it's likely that we're not alone in this universe. So what's more likely, Jesus was an alien or Jesus was a god? Since I think aliens exist and gods don't, the choice is clear.

But of course, I already gave several explanations for Jesus's followers claims that don't rely on any type of advanced technology. Anything is preferable to magic.

I just don't believe in magic. Magic is not logical. It's not real. Any explanation for events that relies on magic is irrational by its very nature.
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Old 12-23-2005, 09:07 AM   #220
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nobody knows if any of this happened. nobody will ever know.

remember people tend to stretch the truth when telling stories to make it more interesting. I personally think that the bible is a story book, written by a bunch of people. I think it was made for entertainment a long time ago. I dont think people who do believe are wrong because I keep an open mind. Thats what bothers me with people who do believe, they always say non-believers are wrong even though they cant bring any proof that any of this happened except for a book. In this reasoning, there really was 4 kids that went through a wardrobe into another world and defeated the ice queen with the help of a talking lion named Aslan and a large amount of creatures and then became the kings and queens of this magical land. The proof I bring that this actually happened is that its written in a book.
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Old 12-23-2005, 09:52 AM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
And remember Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Even if Jesus's followers really did think they saw him rise from the grave, there are other explanations that I'd accept before magic and gods.

Like, say, time travel. Some future generation sent back someone with advanced technology who was able to fake death. Hey, it worked for Star Trek. Don't get me wrong---I'm not saying that I believe Jesus was a time traveller. All I'm saying is that if my choice is time traveller or god, I'll go for time travel.

Or aliens. I think it's likely that we're not alone in this universe. So what's more likely, Jesus was an alien or Jesus was a god? Since I think aliens exist and gods don't, the choice is clear.

But of course, I already gave several explanations for Jesus's followers claims that don't rely on any type of advanced technology. Anything is preferable to magic.

I just don't believe in magic. Magic is not logical. It's not real. Any explanation for events that relies on magic is irrational by its very nature.
man, you make way too much sense for any theist to open their mind and see how rediculous believing in an imaginary, non-existent boogie man who lives up in "the heavens" who will "save" them from the evils of "not" believing in him.

The dogma and falacy that has been shoved down their throats since before they were born, and their fear of dying without a savior clouds their judgement.

And they call us "illogical," how silly.
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:30 AM   #222
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I beleive Jesus was a cool dude. I also believe he had good ideas that were corrupted by evil men for their persoanl animalistic gain. Like John Kerry. In fact most of the misguided anger or hatred Christians have has nothing to do with Jesus. It's because they need treatment. And to that I believe the message he brought should be celebrated by those who believe him as man or those who feel he is god. That's all. so Merry Christmas. The U.S.A - where Merry Christmas is a political statement.
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:29 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
And remember Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Even if Jesus's followers really did think they saw him rise from the grave, there are other explanations that I'd accept before magic and gods.

Like, say, time travel. Some future generation sent back someone with advanced technology who was able to fake death. Hey, it worked for Star Trek. Don't get me wrong---I'm not saying that I believe Jesus was a time traveller. All I'm saying is that if my choice is time traveller or god, I'll go for time travel.

Or aliens. I think it's likely that we're not alone in this universe. So what's more likely, Jesus was an alien or Jesus was a god? Since I think aliens exist and gods don't, the choice is clear.

But of course, I already gave several explanations for Jesus's followers claims that don't rely on any type of advanced technology. Anything is preferable to magic.

I just don't believe in magic. Magic is not logical. It's not real. Any explanation for events that relies on magic is irrational by its very nature.
What makes you so sure that there is no God that you are an athiest instead of an agnostic? The problem with atheist logic is that you automatically and arbitrarily reject certain possibilities from the beginning of your thought process due to your bias. An agnostic admits that he does not know everything and that there might be and might not be a God. As a proponent of science, you should know that eliminating a result from the beginning because you dont want it biases your conclusion. Do you really think you know everything? I dont know everything, but I have faith that there is a God. You really only have faith that there isn't.

You know, if there is a God, He wouldnt have to follow all our silly rules. You are trying to put Him in a box that humans would be able to understand.
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Old 12-24-2005, 12:48 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
What makes you so sure that there is no God that you are an athiest instead of an agnostic?
Here's an example:
  • What if I told you that I run a mile every day? You'd probably believe me. (believer)
  • What if I said that I had run in over 50 marathons last year? You'd probably be a little skeptical, but you'd be willing to accept that it was possible. (agnostic)
  • What if I told you that I walked on water? You'd want to see some proof. (atheist)
Would you have an open mind or would you simply not believe me? The more outrageous the claim, the more skeptical you should be and the more proof you should require before accepting it. When presented with a claim that is outside known rational thought, the logical thing to do is to reject it outright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
You are trying to put Him in a box that humans would be able to understand.
I'm not trying to put your god in any type of box. My requirement for proof for supernatural experiences is not limited to the divine. For example, if someone claimed that she could talk to ghosts, I'd want proof. Wouldn't you? If someone claimed that he could move objects with his mind, I'd want proof. Wouldn't you? Before seeing proof would you be "agnostic to the idea" or "atheistic to the idea"?

It's not even just the supernatural---if someone claimed that he had a device that could instantly transport a person from one place to another, I'd want some proof. Wouldn't you?

If---like me---you would not accept someone's word for these things without adequate proof, then why don't you apply the same test to your belief in so-called miracles?
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Old 12-24-2005, 09:38 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
What makes you so sure that there is no God that you are an athiest instead of an agnostic?
Here's an example:
  • What if I told you that I run a mile every day? You'd probably believe me. (believer)
  • What if I said that I had run in over 50 marathons last year? You'd probably be a little skeptical, but you'd be willing to accept that it was possible. (agnostic)
  • What if I told you that I walked on water? You'd want to see some proof. (atheist)
Would you have an open mind or would you simply not believe me? The more outrageous the claim, the more skeptical you should be and the more proof you should require before accepting it. When presented with a claim that is outside known rational thought, the logical thing to do is to reject it outright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
You are trying to put Him in a box that humans would be able to understand.
I'm not trying to put your god in any type of box. My requirement for proof for supernatural experiences is not limited to the divine. For example, if someone claimed that she could talk to ghosts, I'd want proof. Wouldn't you? If someone claimed that he could move objects with his mind, I'd want proof. Wouldn't you? Before seeing proof would you be "agnostic to the idea" or "atheistic to the idea"?

It's not even just the supernatural---if someone claimed that he had a device that could instantly transport a person from one place to another, I'd want some proof. Wouldn't you?

If---like me---you would not accept someone's word for these things without adequate proof, then why don't you apply the same test to your belief in so-called miracles?
excellent, I mean excellent, answer!
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