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Old 01-07-2006, 02:27 PM   #256
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gosh amnesia,

you are pushing your argument to where you are beginning to sound silly.

the origin of santa claus is well known. and now you are talking about someone who supposedly delivers toys to children CURRENTLY, when all the parents know who put the toys under the christmas tree.

your argument is just getting too weak.

as i have already said, to deny the existence of something outside of this universe, for which you have absolutely no idea about is irrational.

why not just ante up - say that you dont know for sure, but that you strongly doubt it.
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:38 PM   #257
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The whole idea of believing in things without proof is silly.

What about flying reindeer? How do you know they don't exist? Just because Santa uses them doesn't mean they don't exist. After all, sleighs exist... You don't have direct knowledge of their non-existence, any more than you have direct knowledge of the tooth fairy's non-existence or anything like that.

So why don't you believe? Or, more to the point, why do you think it's not irrational to not believe? Because (as I've said earlier) the farther away you get from the rational, the more proof is necessary.

In order to believe in something like flying reindeer, you would either need to see it yourself or know that there was a scientific study done that shows that reindeer can indeed fly. Right? Isn't that what it would take?
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:57 PM   #258
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the difference here is that studies can be done on reindeer. Jesus and God were written about a couple thousand years ago, no studies can be done on Jesus or God because simply they arent around. Its not like you can walk down the street and say "hey, theres a Jesus. Lets do studies on him to see if these things were true or not." Where a reindeer you can go into the wild and do extensive research on them.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:01 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuN
no studies can be done on Jesus or God because simply they arent around.
God's not around?

So miracles and whatnot are only things that happened in the far past?

And even if you do extensive studies on reindeer, how can you say with absolute confidence that there aren't other reindeer that haven't been found that do in fact fly?
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:17 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
So miracles and whatnot are only things that happened in the far past?
how can you absolutely without a doubt believe that a miracle is in fact from a "god" and not some other factor that can be explained with scientific studies?
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:44 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuN
how can you absolutely without a doubt believe that a miracle is in fact from a "god" and not some other factor that can be explained with scientific studies?
I don't. I don't believe in miracles at all.
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Old 01-07-2006, 08:18 PM   #262
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hi amnesia,

you are slowly backing off.

i never said it was irrational for you not to believe in god.

in fact, your arguments are very good if you were attempting to back up the statement - that you wont believe in god or anything else, until it is proven to you.

if you had said that, i would have had no problem.

flying reindeer, etc. are all things of this world. i wont believe them either, without seeing them, since all my past experience dictates to me that they dont exist.

so again, i have no problem whatsoever with someone who has that thought process about god.

that is completely different from the stance that you had been taking - THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

if you are changing your stance to not believing in god until shown to exist, then okay. i can even understand you thinking that i am silly to believe in god when i cant prove it for myself.

i have already stated that i probably would be agnostic if i had not been raised christian.

people who say that god does not exist do not realize that they are suffering from the same sort of brainwashing as the people they make fun of - those that emphatically say that god does exist.

it is not likely that any of us will ever know the answer to that question while we are here in this universe.

and none of us have even a smidgeon of knowledge about what may or may not be outside of this universe.

we dont believe in flying reindeer, because we have lots of knowledge about this universe, so we can make an informed decision.

how does one make an INFORMED decision about something of which we have NO INFORMATION ? impossible to do.
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Old 01-07-2006, 08:59 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet

flying reindeer, etc. are all things of this world. i wont believe them either, without seeing them, since all my past experience dictates to me that they dont exist.
and what past experience do you have that proves god exists?


Quote:
so again, i have no problem whatsoever with someone who has that thought process about god.
I would seriously doubt the sincerity of this statement.

Quote:
that is completely different from the stance that you had been taking - THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST.
It's not "completely different", it still allows for the belief that there simply is no proof , none whatsoever, that a god exists.

Quote:
i can even understand you thinking that i am silly to believe in god when i cant prove it for myself.
no one can say that better than you.
Quote:
i have already stated that i probably would be agnostic if i had not been raised christian.
no, you're just afraid to face the truth. there there is no evidence, but you're just to embarassed to admit your whole life has been led down a false path, and that all your friends, family and loved ones are wrong.


Quote:
people who say that god does not exist do not realize that they are suffering from the same sort of brainwashing as the people they make fun of - those that emphatically say that god does exist.
this may be the most rediculous statement a theist can make.
Atheists are not brainwashed, gym. they simply have no reason or evidence to believe in a myth. that's like saying you're brainwashed for not believing in Zeus. Why don't you believe in Zeus?? He's a god. What, you don't believe in God?? You must be brainwashed.


Quote:
it is not likely that any of us will ever know the answer to that question while we are here in this universe.
because proving the existence of something which is non-existent CAN'T BE DONE.
Quote:
and none of us have even a smidgeon of knowledge about what may or may not be outside of this universe.
Then why on earth would you believe in a myth???? A fable??

oh, right..the "not being able to admit" it thing.
Quote:
we dont believe in flying reindeer, because we have lots of knowledge about this universe, so we can make an informed decision.
We have lots of knowledge? Then why don't you use some of it and realize that without any evidence for a supreme mythical being, it's ludicrous to believe in one?


Quote:
how does one make an INFORMED decision about something of which we have NO INFORMATION ?
Atheists do make an INFORMED decision...no evidence (simply no proof that a god exists) is enough information to NOT BELIEVE in something that simply does not exist.
However, it is the theist who bases his faith on NO INFORMATION (no proof), not atheists.


Quote:
impossible to do.
yet, you do it every single day of your life when you affirm your faith in mythology.
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Old 01-07-2006, 09:55 PM   #264
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NYJazz had some good points, but I though I'd add a little to this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
we dont believe in flying reindeer, because we have lots of knowledge about this universe, so we can make an informed decision.
Exactly! Exactly! It's exactly that same knowledge that says that ghosts don't exist or that Moses never parted the Red Sea or that Jesus didn't come back from the dead: We have knowledge of how the world works and these types of magic or supernatural events don't fit with our knowledge.

Again, you're not "agnostic" towards the idea of a flying reindeer, right? You're atheistic. You don't believe in it. Why? Because it goes against knowledge you spoke of. The same thing applies to the other magical or supernatural stories.
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Old 01-07-2006, 09:58 PM   #265
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If lskjd you sddfja are lkdlk reading lkdlkjj[a this 'lds;jf[sl then aslkdjflks you shdpffpa have ;slkjdfklajs an jdfsjasdjf;k open s;dkadf mind!
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Old 01-07-2006, 10:13 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icclearly
If lskjd you sddfja are lkdlk reading lkdlkjj[a this 'lds;jf[sl then aslkdjflks you shdpffpa have ;slkjdfklajs an jdfsjasdjf;k open s;dkadf mind!
I take it you're a theist.
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Old 01-08-2006, 12:21 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJazz
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet

flying reindeer, etc. are all things of this world. i wont believe them either, without seeing them, since all my past experience dictates to me that they dont exist.
and what past experience do you have that proves god exists?


nyjazz,
i found your whole post pretty poorly stated. you apparently dont read too well, either. i never said i had any past experience that god exists. in fact, quite the contrary, if you would take the time to read and comprehend what i said.

i have already stated a dozen times that there is no proof that god exists or does not exist.
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Old 01-08-2006, 12:25 AM   #268
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[quote="NYJazz"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
so again, i have no problem whatsoever with someone who has that thought process about god.
I would seriously doubt the sincerity of this statement.

[quote]


well that shows me that you make judgments about people when you havent the slightest bit of information with which to make said judgment.

if you ask amnesia, i bet he will tell you that he believes that above statement. i dont lie.
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Old 01-08-2006, 12:28 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJazz
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet

that is completely different from the stance that you had been taking - THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST.
It's not "completely different", it still allows for the belief that there simply is no proof , none whatsoever, that a god exists.
well once again, you need to take a course in english.

saying that god does not exist is absolutely different from saying that you wont believe in god until he is shown to exist.
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Old 01-08-2006, 12:34 AM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJazz
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i have already stated that i probably would be agnostic if i had not been raised christian.
no, you're just afraid to face the truth. there there is no evidence, but you're just to embarassed to admit your whole life has been led down a false path, and that all your friends, family and loved ones are wrong.
where do you dream this stuff up ? was my argument so good that it made you interject your own falsehoods about me ?

look at my quote, and then read your reply to it. how in the world is that a reply to the above statement of mine ? i guess you just had nothing good to reply, so you went way off course.

i am afraid to admit the truth ? i have already stated that there is no evidence that conclusively says that god exists.

and not all my friends are believers, either.
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