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Old 09-25-2005, 01:32 PM   #16
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Here's an example of the authors' use of "logic":

Quote:
page 130:
The very fact that Darwinists think they have reasons to be atheists actually presupposes that God exists. How so? Because reasons require that this universe be a reasonable one that presupposes there is order, logic, design, and truth. But order, logic, design, and truth can only exist and be known if there is an unchangeable objective source and standard of such things.
They are effectively saying that to believe in logic is to believe in a god. Ridiculous.
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Old 09-25-2005, 01:50 PM   #17
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I actually have read the book that linedrive points out, and well, color me not impressed. First off, the guy that wrote it is a professor who teaches logic courses. Now, you would figure this guy must know what he's talking about right? Well, that's what he hopes you'll believe, because he does use logic throughout this book. It's there to make you believe that he has done this "scientifically" as linedrive points out. However, he mis-uses some of the basic theorums of logic to come to his argument. In other words, the book is a complete sham.

Religion in and of itself is a faulty premise. It is the same tactics that advertisers use to get you to buy products every day. "Hurry, this sale won't last long." "Hurry, stop sinning or you'll go to hell". It's all about fear and doubt and the strange human ability to give in to both. The strange subject of trying to "prove" there is a God only goes to show that some folks are so insecure in their own belief that they must try to get others to believe as well so that they aren't in the minority. They can feel that they "belong" to something. This also fills another basic human flaw. The need for acceptance. Religion fills this void for most people.

I don't need a religion to tell me there is or isn't a God. I don't need a priest, rabbi, paster, or nun. If you believe, that's great. If you don't that is your right as well. To judge either the believer or non-believer as moral/immoral, caring/uncaring, etc is a sign of complete insecurity in your own actions and beliefs. Most Christian groups will tell you, you have to come to know God on your own terms. Why don't they follow their own advice and let everyone do just that? Ah, but they say they feel the need to "testify". That's great. Do it in court. But here's the problem. There is this neat thing called judgement, as most Christians know, but only one entity is supposed to be doing that judging according to the good book. So, when God comes to judge, then you can testify. Until that happens, just keep it to yourself.

It all comes back to that basic question that every human knows. Which came first, the chicken or the egg. Because we have limited capacity to explain this "mystery" we must attribute it to some force that existed before everything else. Oh, and because we're the top on the food chain and intelligence quotient (that we know of) we must exist in this forces likeness, because you know, we're the best.

So now that I've rambled on giving you all a sermon from the mount, to answer the original post: Does God exist? What do you think? And whatever you think, keep it to yourself, because quite frankly, I don't need to know what you think. I'm fine with my own beliefs, thanks.
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Old 09-25-2005, 02:42 PM   #18
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I wonder how those people on the Jet Blue flight that landed at LAX the other day would answer this topic question?
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Old 09-25-2005, 02:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaJoker
And whatever you think, keep it to yourself, because quite frankly, I don't need to know what you think. I'm fine with my own beliefs, thanks.
well put point..... God and religion basically comes down to "what you believe. is." If you believe there is a god and believing in him will get you into heaven and thus hopefully make you a better person in this life then that is whats best for you......

personally I think god and religion is something that people use to justify their existance in the universe..... in the grand scheme of life and the universe, in the grand scheme of this planet even, our lives are pretty insignificant..... humans have been on this planet for 50k years, give or take.... dinosaurs ruled the planed for hundreds of millions of years and they were just a blip on the radar... can you imagine what that makes humankind.....

Hopefully whichever species is in line to rule this planet after mankind is long gone will have the knowledge and the power to look beyond the beyond so they dont have to sit around posting on message boards wondering "is there a god."
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Old 09-25-2005, 02:49 PM   #20
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hi joker,

i liked most of your post. but i would say that there is a difference between "sharing ones opinion in a fun and lively discourse", which is what i hope this thread will continue to be, AND attempting to force ones opinion on someone else.

i, for example, do believe in god, and dont mind sharing that opinion.

however, never have i attempted to force that opinion on anyone else. and i have many friends and acquaintances who lean towards agnosticism, and dont feel any worse about them because of their choice.
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Old 09-25-2005, 02:56 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius_Rich
I wonder how those people on the Jet Blue flight that landed at LAX the other day would answer this topic question?
Yeah there was the one lady that they interviewed. She was asked so what did you do. She said I prayed, I prayed like I have never prayed. The reporter said well you know that is pretty common. She said not for me because I am not a believer.

Typical response if you ask me. All these non believers reaching out to this God that doesn't exist. If it wasn't so serious it would be funny.
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Old 09-25-2005, 03:24 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAB
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius_Rich
I wonder how those people on the Jet Blue flight that landed at LAX the other day would answer this topic question?
Yeah there was the one lady that they interviewed. She was asked so what did you do. She said I prayed, I prayed like I have never prayed. The reporter said well you know that is pretty common. She said not for me because I am not a believer.

Typical response if you ask me. All these non believers reaching out to this God that doesn't exist. If it wasn't so serious it would be funny.
Great post DAB. It reminds me of a story W.C. Fields grandson shared on the David Letterman show many years ago. According to the grandson, W.C. Fields was not religious. But when he became very ill and was in the hospital basically dying, someone came into his room and he was reading the Bible. When asked what he was doing since he was not religious, W.C. responded, "Just looking for loopholes." The story was told as a humorous anecdote, but it points out what you are saying. Apparently atheists are not so sure when confronted with death. Again, as you said DAB, if it wasn't so serious it would be funny.
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Old 09-25-2005, 03:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
It argues the point scientifically. You can skip the first two chapters that are a little boring, but beginning with chapter 3, the evidence is overwhelming. It really does take MORE faith to be an atheist.
OK, first of all, I haven't read the book ....
OK, first of all, how about reading the book before you criticize it or dismiss it.

Secongly, the premise of the book is that it takes MORE faith to be an atheist than to be a believer. You need to read the portions starting in chapter 3 that tear to shreds what atheists believe about the origin of the universe, etc.

You know, "facts" that scientists tell us are not always "facts". They are hyposthesis. For instance, it use to be a "fact" that the universe has always been here - and that was what was taught and anyone who questioned it was an idiot. But then it was discovered that the amount of usable energy in the universe is actually decreasing, which means it will have an end, and also had to have a beginning. So, uh-oh, the "fact" that the universe was always here is no longer "fact" - they were *GASP* wrong! So then scientists had to come up with another hypothesis to tout as "fact" - the Big Bang. So now that is "fact". You are putting your faith (and your fate) in the hands of humans who admittedly dont know and have to keep changing the "facts". What other "facts" will they be correcting over the years?
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Old 09-25-2005, 04:24 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
OK, first of all, how about reading the book before you criticize it or dismiss it. (...) You need to read the portions starting in chapter 3 that tear to shreds what atheists believe about the origin of the universe, etc.
I read a few dozen pages on Amazon.

I read some of chapter 3 and it hardly "tears to shreds" scientific views about the origin of the universe. Their argument is the same as gymeejet's: that cause-and-effect preclude the notion of a spontaneous big bang or a persistent universe. My response is the same as I gave to him: Either
  1. you believe in a universe that has always been there or
  2. you believe in a supernatural being that has always been there who created the universe.
Believing in (B) requires you to additional explain away the creation of said supernatural being---that is, it requires two steps instead of just one.

There is no way that explanation (B) is the more simple or logical. Note: that is not "proof" of the non-existence of a god any more than the authors' argument is proof that a god does exist. I'm just saying that logically, explanation (A) is the more simple and requires fewer postulates and should therefore be preferred (in the absence of additional evidence).

And BTW: as a believer, you are hardly in a position to talk about correcting facts. Have you forgotten Galileo?
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Old 09-25-2005, 04:41 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
... as a believer, you are hardly in a position to talk about correcting facts. Have you forgotten Galileo?
I am a believer, but not Catholic. Not to judge any particular faith, but Rome did a lot of things during that time period that led to the Protestant Reformation. Again, I'm not judging Catholicism, because humans are fallible, and humans in every denomination have made mistakes. But that is exactly my point - all humans make mistakes - including scientists, as I pointed out in my earlier post.

What it boils down to is this:

a) if I'm wrong, I've just been foolish, and I end up just like you when I die

b) if you're wrong, well....

Since you have so much to lose if you're wrong, wouldn't it be prudent to thoroughly investigate with an open mind, instead of immediately dismissing the possibility?
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Old 09-25-2005, 05:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
I read some of chapter 3 and it hardly "tears to shreds" scientific views about the origin of the universe. Their argument is the same as gymeejet's: that cause-and-effect preclude the notion of a spontaneous big bang or a persistent universe. My response is the same as I gave to him: Either
  1. you believe in a universe that has always been there or
  2. you believe in a supernatural being that has always been there who created the universe.
Believing in (B) requires you to additional explain away the creation of said supernatural being---that is, it requires two steps instead of just one.

There is no way that explanation (B) is the more simple or logical. Note:
hi amnesia,

if we are searching for the truth, which i think we both are, there is a big flaw in your "either" statement.

as i have shown, for the universe to have had no beginning, would require so many ridiculous things with regards to time, that you really have to be somewhat foolish to believe that. there is no such thing in our universe as an infinite number of real objects.

if the universe had no beginning, then an infinite amount of time would have already elapsed. that in itself is ridiculous. for a truly infinite amount of time to have elapsed would require all things that dont live forever, to have already ended. you and i would not be having this discussion today, since we would have already passed on. ditto for the universe itself, as i explained earlier.

BUT our current laws do not necessarily extend beyond our universe.

so you can not equate the 2 events, or your 2 choices, because they are not guided by the same set of rules. for example, all the time-problems that conflict with "our universe never having a beginning" do not at all necessarily conflict with something outside of our universe never having a beginning.

we dont know if the notion of time has any meaning whatsoever outside of this universe. now granted, our universe would not exist as it does without time, but that is OUR UNIVERSE. and unfortunately, we are stuck in it, for the good and the bad.

but the most we can do scientifically is label this thing that created the universe a "phenomena", or some other generic type of name.
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Old 09-25-2005, 05:48 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
Since you have so much to lose if you're wrong, wouldn't it be prudent to thoroughly investigate with an open mind, instead of immediately dismissing the possibility?
Why is it that you assume that it's my mind that is not open? I did once believe in gods and magic, until I realized that just because you want something to be true does not make it so. And just because priests have throughout the centuries given themselves power through fear, does not make their threats real---"so much to lose", indeed! That's what the priests say to keep their followers in line.

And gymeejet, even if the universe was created by something outside itself, there is still no reason to interject an intelligence into the process. Adding an intelligent being only complicates the matter---because you now have to explain away its existence. Adding an additional layer will never simplify things. If the universe was created by an outside force, why not just accept that its creation was a natural process?
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Old 09-25-2005, 07:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit

a) if I'm wrong, I've just been foolish, and I end up just like you when I die

b) if you're wrong, well....
I really don't know. I probably don't believe in God. One thing is for sure I will not make up my mind based upon a fear of a negative consequence.

This is where religion has been so badly abused. Who says there is heaven and hell? Maybe God, but probably you have heard it from the lips of a person and seen it from a book translated by a person and probably written by a person. So if I tell you that you do what I say or else God would send you to eternal hellfire--and you believe it--puts me in a pretty powerful position without earning that power.

FOr those who do believe, I do not wish to dissuade you. I do hope that the belief is based upon positive feelings and not fear.


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Old 09-25-2005, 07:27 PM   #29
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hi amnesia,

you could be right. like i said, we can both only speculate (and probably very poorly) about what is outside of our universe.

but actually i think it is more likely that this "outside force" is a being, as opposed to a process. and i am quite content with you and others thinking it is more likely just some process.

but to be honest, what i really think is the following. i dont think anyone in this universe can even imagine what is beyond. it is beyond our scope of understanding, and always will be, while we are in this universe.

i think i already gave you this example, but others may not have heard. take a sphere. there are an infinite amount of 2-dimensional surfaces at varying distances away from the sphere's center. the center is not actually a part of any of the surfaces. sorta what the scientists thing about the big bang. coincidental ? i dont know. just using whatever limited logic that i was given.

now a truly 2-dimensional being on one of these 2-dimensional surfaces has no idea about up or down, nor will he ever be able to. that whole realm of existence is stuck in a 2-dimensional level.

now expand that logic out to our 3-dimensional spatial world being a subset of a 4-dimensional spatial world. we would have no ability to understand it, no ability to dream about it - completely out of our grasp, just like the 2-dimensional man not being able to think about up and down.

within our universe, space at least seems complete. time does not even seem complete within our universe. we can only go one direction within time. it seems even a bit more reasonable to think that we are not experiencing the full time dimension. not that i could ever imagine what it is !!!!!
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Old 09-25-2005, 07:30 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleBoomsky
Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit

a) if I'm wrong, I've just been foolish, and I end up just like you when I die

b) if you're wrong, well....
I really don't know. I probably don't believe in God. One thing is for sure I will not make up my mind based upon a fear of a negative consequence.

This is where religion has been so badly abused. Who says there is heaven and hell? Maybe God, but probably you have heard it from the lips of a person and seen it from a book translated by a person and probably written by a person. So if I tell you that you do what I say or else God would send you to eternal hellfire--and you believe it--puts me in a pretty powerful position without earning that power.

FOr those who do believe, I do not wish to dissuade you. I do hope that the belief is based upon positive feelings and not fear.


UB
absolutely ub,

people in power have done exactly that to get control of the masses.
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