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Old 01-31-2006, 03:50 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
god knew it would occur, so god loves me as an individual
I'm not sure what you mean by the word "so". Just because your god foresaw your birth it loves you? That doesn't follow.
Hey, Amnesia...stop catching "closed road" in his contradictions. He only gets very defensive and keeps claiming them to "not" be contradictions.

It's quite silly, you know.
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Old 01-31-2006, 07:16 PM   #362
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Hey, Amnesia...stop catching "closed road" in his contradictions
Huh?
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:33 AM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
god knew it would occur, so god loves me as an individual
I'm not sure what you mean by the word "so". Just because your god foresaw your birth it loves you? That doesn't follow.
hi amnesia,

you were basically using the argument that since god did not control me being born, that i am not anything special to him.

my "so" was simply giving you my reason or belief why your assumption is not correct. and then it would follow that your conclusion would no longer be able to come from that assumption.

again, these are beliefs, so i do not want to preface every statement with "it is my belief". it is a given. in fact, with this set of arguments, we are assuming that there is a god and a heaven.

that being said, the fact that god knows us before we ever born, makes the situation very different from one where he did not know that my parents would have me.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:35 AM   #364
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And doesn't the notion of a god with foreknowledge exclude the possibility of free will? Maybe the god didn't force your parents to conceive you, but if it knew it would happen, that (to me) suggests that your parents ultimately didn't have a choice. Either they had a choice (free will) or they didn't (divine foreknowledge). You can't have both.
not at all. if i had a crystal ball that could see into the future, i would know everything that was gonna happen, yet did not control any of it.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:38 AM   #365
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i tend to believe that hell is simply the absence of heaven.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the absence of heaven".
the absence of heaven is simply that - there is no heaven. so hell is not a real place that one goes to - they just dont get to go to heaven. so their life just stops, just as you already believe it does.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:51 AM   #366
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I'm quoting what I saw on another forum:

Religon - when you're too old to believe in the boogy man, believe in God.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:54 AM   #367
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they just dont get to go to heaven.
go to heaven?

how do you believe this crap?? how?
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:55 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yg17
I'm quoting what I saw on another forum:

Religon - when you're too old to believe in the boogy man, believe in God.
precisely.

just replacing one (childish) myth with a (more) childish one.

the only thing more childish than a boogeyman, is a god-like one.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:42 AM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
Quote:
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And doesn't the notion of a god with foreknowledge exclude the possibility of free will?
not at all. if i had a crystal ball that could see into the future, i would know everything that was gonna happen, yet did not control any of it.
Lack of free will isn't the same as saying that something is externally controlled, at least in my book.

Free will implies the ability to make choices to affect the future. If you're a prisoner and know without a doubt that your cellmate will still be in prison the next day, that means that he isn't there of his own free will. That is, the choice is not his.

If some god could know where you will be tomorrow or what you will do, it means that you do not have free will because you would be powerless to change things. You might believe that the choices were yours, but if your "choices" were preordianed, then they're not really choices, are they?

Taking it a step further, that implies that the so-called "good" people and the so-called "bad" people (along with their good or bad activities) are already known to the god ahead of time. If so, what's the point of it all?
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:42 AM   #370
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We can also use the time-travel movie analogy:

In Back to the Future, Marty could change the past and affect the present/future. He had free will.

In The Final Countdown, the captain could not decide to change things. He did not have free will (with regards to his decision whether or not to change the present/future).

If your notion of a god is correct, we're all as helpless as Kirk Douglas in The Final Countdown...
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:07 AM   #371
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wow - you are really wrong on this point.

free will is about a person having a choice on what to do. the fact that god knows what we are gonna do - does not at all change the fact that we have free will.

if god exerted some force on us, then we would not have free will.

my crystal ball is an excellent example. so i will repeat it. if i can look into the future, and know all that is gonna happen, i myself am not exerting any force to cause it. people still have free will. i just happen to know what it is they will choose.

now obviously there is no such thing as a crystal ball in our universe. but most believers think of god in this way - that he has foreknowledge of everything that we will ultimately choose to do and not to do.
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Old 02-01-2006, 11:42 AM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
my crystal ball is an excellent example. so i will repeat it. if i can look into the future, and know all that is gonna happen, i myself am not exerting any force to cause it. people still have free will. i just happen to know what it is they will choose.
OK, let's say that you look in your crystal ball and you know that your mother will get drive her car and get into fatal car accident tomorrow.

Can your mom decide not to drive her car? No. Does she have a choice? No. Does she have free will? No.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:59 PM   #373
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boy, you are having problems with this example, because it is not something that is possible for us in this universe.

my mom absolutely has free will to do as she decides. to have foreknowledge just means that one already knows with 100% certainty what will happen to said person as said person exercises said person's free will.
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:42 PM   #374
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Yes, He is on CH 100 and 101.
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Old 02-01-2006, 02:28 PM   #375
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Quote:
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boy, you are having problems with this example
Well, one of us is!

Maybe we just don't agree on the definition of free will.

I define free will as the (general) ability to make choices. And for something to be a choice means that there are several alternatives and I could pick any of the alternatives.

So far, so good? Do you understand my definition?

If you know that your mom is going to be in a car accident, then she no longer has a choice as to whether or not to get into the car. Agree?

She must get into the car. She must get into the accident. Agree?

She does not really have an array of alternatives from which to choose. She might believe that she does, but in reality you know that there is one and only one alternative---she will get behind the wheel. No choice. Agree?

And no alternatives and no choice means no free will.


And going back to the original reference, if there's a god who knows the future, that means that your mom and dad had no free will as to with whom they would procreate. Your mom may have suffered under the illusion that she had a choice of mates, but if a god already knew it was going to be your dad, then in reality she had no choice whatsoever. It was all an illusion.
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