Digital Radio Central - Sponsored by TSS Radio
  DRC Home Page DRC Forums Contact Us  
 
SIRIUS Backstage Forum
 
 
 
  Sirius Satellite Radio XM Satellite Radio iTunes/iPod Slacker Pandora  
 
 
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  
Go Back   SIRIUS Backstage Forum > >
Visit Digital Radio Central

Notices

The Doghouse Here is where people are talking everything not SIRIUS related. So be cool, be smart and have something to say!

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 05:36 PM   #376
NYJazz
Mixologist
 
Join Date: Dec 07, 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 302
NYJazz is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to NYJazz
Default

there can be no omnipotent god and free will coexisting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
The problem is inherent in the design.
An all knowing god can not create something without creating it to do exactly what he knows it will do.
Since the design isn't based on what has happened, but what your god will make happen, then it is impossible for him to design something that can move or have will outside of said design.
Thus free will becomes an impossibility.
__________________
Lifetime Sirius Subscription.
Who me?
NYJazz is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 07:29 PM   #377
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

hi amnesia,

once again, free will is the ability to make your own choice to do something or not. foreknowledge of it offers no influence on said person.

while foreknowledge, or knowing the future, is an easy topic to think about, it is not something that we can ever really understand, since it can not happen in this universe.

assuming that god exists, i can say that i do not understand anything at all about how he exists, how he does anything. you are trying to use reasoning to explain something outside of this universe, which can not be done. i wouldnt even try.

but the concepts of knowing about the future and free will are independent of each other - one does not influence the other.

i will admit for the first time that nyjazz made a good intelligent post, instead of his usual types of posts - that using our reasoning about this universe, foreknowledge and free will would be perhaps impossible to have together. but then we already know that foreknowledge is an impossibility in this universe, the way it was created - because there is no such thing as time travel, as time was created in this universe.

ny, i am giving you once last chance if you are really interested in having an adult discussion. i know you are intelligent and can do so if you desire.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 09:07 PM   #378
NYJazz
Mixologist
 
Join Date: Dec 07, 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 302
NYJazz is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to NYJazz
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
ny, i am giving you once last chance if you are really interested in having an adult discussion. i know you are intelligent and can do so if you desire.
I've been doing nothing less.

My points are obviously too advanced for you, you ignore them and can't refute them. When I call you out on your contradictions, you just say "no I'm not" without any logic or systemic argument.

you loose, not me.
__________________
Lifetime Sirius Subscription.
Who me?
NYJazz is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 09:28 PM   #379
Amnesia
Sirius Star
 
Amnesia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 03, 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,035
Amnesia is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
once again, free will is the ability to make your own choice to do something or not. foreknowledge of it offers no influence on said person.
Sigh...it's not a question of influence.

And I agree with NYJazz, but he did not go far enough. Not only is it impossible for omnipotence and free will to co-exist, it's also impossible for omniscience and free will to co-exist. That's the point of my previous post.

It's not that your knowledge of your mother's impending accident will influence her to crash...it's that if she is preordained to crash, she will no matter what. The fact that you know what will happen isn't what causes the accident---all it is is proof that the crash is going to happen.

And by the way, time travel is not necessarily incompatible with the notion of free will---it only is if you cannot change things. Movies like BttF illustrate the idea. The same can be said for foreknowledge. If you know what will happen if nothing changes, then that's OK, as long as you can still change things. TV shows like The Dead Zone and Tru Calling explored those themes.

But back to religion, the whole idea of religious prophecies is incompatible with the concept of free will. For example, supposedly Jesus told Judas that "before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times" or something, right? If Jesus really did have foreknowledge, then there is no such thing as free will (well, at least for Judas).

After hearing that, could Judas have immediately committed suicide? Not if Jesus's prophecy was true. No free will. Could he have hidden in a cave and avoided everyone? Drunk himself into a stupor? No. No free will.

Again, it's not that Jesus influenced him to betray him or whatever. It's that the very idea of foreknowledge constrains a person's future actions, limiting his choices and depriving him of free will. Whether or not Jesus told Judas doesn't matter (that Jesus---such a show off!) . It didn't even matter if the two men even knew one another. As soon as one person knows for a fact what will happen to another in the future, that means that the second person has no free will. And if you're talking about a god who knows all of our futures, then none of us have free will and we're all just playing out our assigned roles on this vast stage and moving inexorably to a foregone conclusion.
__________________
Amnesia is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 09:57 PM   #380
4BAMA
Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 514
4BAMA is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
boy, you are having problems with this example
Well, one of us is!

Maybe we just don't agree on the definition of free will.

I define free will as the (general) ability to make choices. And for something to be a choice means that there are several alternatives and I could pick any of the alternatives.

So far, so good? Do you understand my definition?

If you know that your mom is going to be in a car accident, then she no longer has a choice as to whether or not to get into the car. Agree?

She must get into the car. She must get into the accident. Agree?

She does not really have an array of alternatives from which to choose. She might believe that she does, but in reality you know that there is one and only one alternative---she will get behind the wheel. No choice. Agree?

And no alternatives and no choice means no free will.


And going back to the original reference, if there's a god who knows the future, that means that your mom and dad had no free will as to with whom they would procreate. Your mom may have suffered under the illusion that she had a choice of mates, but if a god already knew it was going to be your dad, then in reality she had no choice whatsoever. It was all an illusion.
i agreed with your definition of free will until the examples. the example you give is someone's destiny.

i had a friend who was an excellent attorney in birmingham. he received a job offer to move back to tuscaloosa after graduating from bama. he moved to tuscaloosa and after being back in tuscaloosa for about a month on a sunday afternoon a young kid(only 18) in a road rage lost control of his vehicle and hit my friend from college in a head on collision and he was killed instantly. he already worked for one of the top law offices in bham and i often wonder what would have happened if he had chosen 2 stay in birmingham and not take the new job but i also realize it was his destiny and when its your time its your time.

as far as free will goes. i'll give another example. say you have someone who because of bad decisions in life is in dire need of money and is desperate. knowing that he should not do this he goes in and robs a bank instead of getting a job or asking others for help. he had free will to decide which path he should take and he makes the wrong decision. being a believer is not easy. in fact it can be truly difficult sometimes but i have faith that the rewards will be great in heaven
4BAMA is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 10:07 PM   #381
NYJazz
Mixologist
 
Join Date: Dec 07, 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 302
NYJazz is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to NYJazz
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4BAMA
i have faith that the rewards will be great in heaven
__________________
Lifetime Sirius Subscription.
Who me?
NYJazz is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 10:14 PM   #382
4BAMA
Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 514
4BAMA is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boges
I don't understand why Gym feels that the after life exists. Just because your church says it does, doesn't mean it's true. I personally haven't been to church in over 10 years. I find it extremely boring and have better things to do with my time. It seems like you are one of those people from the South that has nothing better to do so you go to church and believe everything that is said there. It's almost like you are so narrow minded that you refuse to even consider the fact that heaven doesn't exist.


faith is the reason i believe. sounds like you need to come down south and vacation sometime. although i will agree that california is cooler.church is one thing i try to do. there are many cool things to do. cool buzzes, cool ladies, bama sports, beaches, lakes, cool bars, hour from south florida if you fly from bham.
4BAMA is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 10:16 PM   #383
4BAMA
Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 514
4BAMA is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJazz
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4BAMA
i have faith that the rewards will be great in heaven
does that mean its time 2 burn one?
4BAMA is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 10:23 PM   #384
NYJazz
Mixologist
 
Join Date: Dec 07, 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 302
NYJazz is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to NYJazz
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4BAMA
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJazz
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4BAMA
i have faith that the rewards will be great in heaven
does that mean its time 2 burn one?
unless you're afraid to go to "anti"heaven, or as sometimes referred to as "hell". hahahaha

burn whatever the fuck you want...I know I will.
__________________
Lifetime Sirius Subscription.
Who me?
NYJazz is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 10:32 PM   #385
4BAMA
Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 514
4BAMA is on a distinguished road
Default

cool nyjazz. i enjoy burning one from time to time.
4BAMA is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 10:50 PM   #386
Amnesia
Sirius Star
 
Amnesia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 03, 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,035
Amnesia is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4BAMA
i agreed with your definition of free will until the examples. the example you give is someone's destiny.
The concepts of destiny and free will are incompatible. Just like with a prophecy---if it is known what will happen to somebody, then that person is no longer free to make other choices.

In your bank robber example, if the person had free will then potentially he could have made other choices. Instead of becoming a robber, he could have become a priest or a sailor or a peace corps volunteer. As you said, he was able to decide which path he should take. That is free will.

In constrast to the free will example that you gave, let's say that the person's mother went to a fortune teller when she was pregnant and the fortune teller really could see the future and told the mother that her unborn son would rob a bank on his 21st birthday and it was his destiny. If there were such a thing as seeing the future and such a thing as destiny, then the son no longer has free will.

He can't decide on his 20th birthday to spend the next two years in Papua New Guinea. He can't make decisions which would cause him to be in jail on his 21st birthday. He can't...a lot of things. No matter what, he has to be in that bank with a gun on a certain day. He no longer has free will. And again, this has nothing to do with whether or not his mom tells him his fortune---it's that the very concept of (true) fortune telling is the antithesis of free will. If the future is predetermined, then we only have the illusion of free will.
__________________
Amnesia is offline  
 
 
Old 02-01-2006, 11:36 PM   #387
4BAMA
Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 514
4BAMA is on a distinguished road
Default

interesting example. i don't have a clue if the future is predetermined or not but i believe that things happen for a reason. alot of times we don't understand the reasons that things happen. just like what happened to my friend that was killed. in road rage

i think alot of what happens in everyones future is determined by the decisions we make today, or months from now but with death when its your time its your time
4BAMA is offline  
 
 
Old 02-02-2006, 12:05 AM   #388
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

i guess we are not gonna come eye to eye on this one. free will is the choice to do something, without someone's intervention.

time travel is not possible, no matter what people might like to think. but in your example, i go into the future, do not change anything, but i see you rob a bank. i then comes back to the present, knowing that you will rob a bank. when the time comes, you rob the bank, just as i knew you would.

you had and have free will. i just had foreknowledge of it. knowledge of an event and free will are completely independent of one another. the problem that we are having is that there is no way in this universe to see or know about an event before it actually happens.

it is easy to talk about, but it is also truly an impossibility. so it is really foreknowledge that is hanging us up, because it can never be a reality in this universe. while i certainly cant explain it, i can not automatically assume anything about what is outside this universe. does time even exist outside this universe ? none of us have any clue to that question, or any other question about what is outside this universe.

this is what i have reminded you to remember, as well as reminding myself. we just can not use reason to make conclusions or guesses about what is beyond our universe, if there is anything.

but i am enjoying our discussions and different points of views.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 02-02-2006, 10:13 AM   #389
Amnesia
Sirius Star
 
Amnesia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 03, 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,035
Amnesia is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
so it is really foreknowledge that is hanging us up, because it can never be a reality in this universe.
OK, so fortune tellers----not real, right? Religious prophecies---not real, right? Jesus didn't foresee Judas's betrayal, right? And if there were a god, it couldn't foresee our actions, right?
__________________
Amnesia is offline  
 
 
Old 02-02-2006, 12:18 PM   #390
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

correct about fortune tellers and prophecies. but if one believes that jesus is god, and of course god himself - are not subject to the laws of our universe, so i cant make any comment in terms of proof of whether they could foresee the future - but i tend to believe that, because i tend to believe in god as being all-powerful and such.

rc and i have had lots of very interesting questions regarding the cosmos. i have always found time to be the most interesting unknown that we have. nobody knows what it is. is it a real dimension ? are we just experiencing a portion of its full dimension ? or is it really nothing more than something that we perceive due to the motion of molecules ? i dont know. it is just something that we are all "trapped" in.

if there is a heaven, among other things, my curiosity sure would like to find out about the real nature of everything, including other universes or super-universes, if they exist. i think i have told you - but with logic about this universe, i highly suspect that we are part of a super-universe.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
 

Go Back   SIRIUS Backstage Forum > >


Digitalradiocentral.com




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:24 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.39 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
All Content Copyright SIRIUS Backstage. All Rights Reserved. SIRIUS and registered trademarks are the property of SIRIUS Satellite Radio, Inc. The opinions posted on SIRIUS Backstage website and forums are those of the individual posters and/or this website and are not necessarily the opinions or positions of SIRIUS Satellite Radio, Inc.