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Old 02-02-2006, 12:42 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
correct about fortune tellers and prophecies. but if one believes that jesus is god, and of course god himself - are not subject to the laws of our universe,
don't ya just love rationalizations??

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so i cant make any comment in terms of proof of whether they could foresee the future -
simple, ain't it?
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but i tend to believe that, because i tend to believe in god as being all-powerful and such.
god being "all powerful"?
answer this:
can god make a boulder so heavy, that even HE couldn't lift it?

if the answer is "yes", then he is not all powerful
if the answer is "no" then he is not all powerful.

either way it's rediculous to assume or believe there is an "all powerful" omnipotent being who lives outside the laws of human nature.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:47 PM   #392
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i have already replied to amnesia regarding the boulder way far back in the thread.

it is no ratonalization to state that we cant know about what is outside this universe - just the facts maam. just the facts.
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:04 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by gymeejet
i have already replied to amnesia regarding the boulder way far back in the thread.
where, what page?
It still doesn't matter.

God can not be all powerful if he isn't able or he is able to make a boulder so heavy that even HE can't lift it!!

you losssseeeeeee!!

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it is no ratonalization to state that we cant know about what is outside this universe - just the facts maam. just the facts.
yet, if you say there is a god, or a heaven, you ARE stating what "there is" outside the universe. so my point stands...

ra`tion`a`liz`a`tion
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:20 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by gymeejet
but if one believes that jesus is god, and of course god himself - are not subject to the laws of our universe
How can that be?

You might claim that some extra-universal force---call it a god-the-creator---created this universe and that it was OK for the universe-creation process to violate this universe's laws...

...but if you start talking about action taken by gods in this universe, how can you believe that they can violate the laws of this universe?

Either this universe has laws or it doesn't. One or the other. If it does, then no matter what a being's involvement in the creation of said laws, it still must follow them.
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Old 02-02-2006, 02:23 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
but if one believes that jesus is god, and of course god himself - are not subject to the laws of our universe
How can that be?

You might claim that some extra-universal force---call it a god-the-creator---created this universe and that it was OK for the universe-creation process to violate this universe's laws...

...but if you start talking about action taken by gods in this universe, how can you believe that they can violate the laws of this universe?

Either this universe has laws or it doesn't. One or the other. If it does, then no matter what a being's involvement in the creation of said laws, it still must follow them.
how many times must you be warned not to use LOGIC on these people??
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Old 02-02-2006, 05:05 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
but if one believes that jesus is god, and of course god himself - are not subject to the laws of our universe
How can that be?

You might claim that some extra-universal force---call it a god-the-creator---created this universe and that it was OK for the universe-creation process to violate this universe's laws...

...but if you start talking about action taken by gods in this universe, how can you believe that they can violate the laws of this universe?

Either this universe has laws or it doesn't. One or the other. If it does, then no matter what a being's involvement in the creation of said laws, it still must follow them.
i just say that we cant necessarily conclude that god can not violate the laws of this universe, because we just cant fully understand the super-universe.

i certainly cant tell you how that can be. if it is so, i sure hope to find out some day.
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Old 02-02-2006, 05:11 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by gymeejet
i certainly cant tell you how that can be. if it is so, i sure hope to find out some day.
of course you can't.

You can't even prove god exists!! so how can you prove he's "above" his own laws!!

how silly!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-02-2006, 05:27 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i just say that we cant necessarily conclude that god can not violate the laws of this universe, because we just cant fully understand the super-universe.
If a god can violate them, then they're not really laws...more of gentle suggestions.

And if they're violatable, then there's nothing really stopping anyone from doing so. So all of magic, psychics, it's all back on the table.

I'm glad I don't live in a universe like that.
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Old 02-02-2006, 05:40 PM   #399
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not really - the universe and its inhabitants all must follow those laws. it does not necessarily follow that something outside of the universe would need to follow them.
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Old 02-02-2006, 06:22 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by gymeejet
not really - the universe and its inhabitants all must follow those laws. it does not necessarily follow that something outside of the universe would need to follow them.
OK, if your god is outside the universe, then fine. If it created the universe externally and stays out there, fine---it doesn't need to follow the laws of this universe.

But you're claiming that the god interacts with the inhabitants of this universe. In doing so it must follow the laws, or else they're not really laws.

Look---either rape is against the law or it's not. If some people are allowed to rape but others aren't then it's not really a law. Same goes for gravity. Either it's a law or it's not. You can't have some people affected by the law gravity and others who just choose to ignore it (even if they have never studied law).

If you keep your god outside this universe---that is, god-the-creator, then I might agree that an external god's creation of this universe would not be constrained by the laws of this universe. But once the universe is created, it has laws. Just because a being created the thing doesn't mean that it can violate the laws...or else they're not really laws.

So which is it? Is your god constrained by the laws of this universe or are there no such laws (only strong guidelines)? You can't have it both ways.
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Old 02-02-2006, 06:29 PM   #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
not really - the universe and its inhabitants all must follow those laws. it does not necessarily follow that something outside of the universe would need to follow them.
OK, if your god is outside the universe, then fine. If it created the universe externally and stays out there, fine---it doesn't need to follow the laws of this universe.

But you're claiming that the god interacts with the inhabitants of this universe. In doing so it must follow the laws, or else they're not really laws.

Look---either rape is against the law or it's not. If some people are allowed to rape but others aren't then it's not really a law. Same goes for gravity. Either it's a law or it's not. You can't have some people affected by the law gravity and others who just choose to ignore it (even if they have never studied law).

If you keep your god outside this universe---that is, god-the-creator, then I might agree that an external god's creation of this universe would not be constrained by the laws of this universe. But once the universe is created, it has laws. Just because a being created the thing doesn't mean that it can violate the laws...or else they're not really laws.

So which is it? Is your god constrained by the laws of this universe or are there no such laws (only strong guidelines)? You can't have it both ways.
don't fall into his trap, man.

there is no god.
there is no god "only" universe.

there is only perception.
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Old 02-03-2006, 02:36 AM   #402
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hi amnesia,

you are attempting to conclude things about god that we just cant conclude. we can not rule out what god can do in this universe, just because we can not understand what is outside this universe, and how it works.

one of the biggest complaints that non-believers have is that believers make up god, or use god to explain the unexplainable. and i agree with you that this is done by many of us believers to one extent or the other.

but if god is able to create the universe, then one can not conclude that god is unable to violate the laws of the universe. we just have no idea about how things work in this "super-universe". our minds just can not fathom it, any more than an insect can think about advanced physics.

do i understand how god can violate the laws of physics ? of course not - i dont even try.

even though our minds and very existence can not fathom an existence without time, i suspect that time, as we know it, is only part of this universe. if this is true, and if the super-universe is as strange and different to us as i suspect, we just cant make any conclusions about what can or can not occur outside of this universe, or by god acting in this universe.

however, for the most part, since i do believe in free will, i also believe that god does not interact in this universe, for the most part. so it is not like i think god is running around all over, performing magic and such.

for example, i think you were discussing the actual "going to heaven", as being one of the main examples of god violating the laws of this universe - simply by taking us outside of it. lol.

with our limited brains, we all think of "going to heaven" in the same vein as "going to the store" - in other words going to some place. i really doubt that this is much of a good description of what really occurs, but it is a way for us to at least have an idea - much like how we would talk to a child about an adult situation. it isnt actually what happens, but it allows the child to have an understanding, based upon his level to comprehend.

and our level to comprehend everything is not like a child, but more than likely way less than a one-celled amoeba.

so the topics of god and the universe and such are of great interest to me, even though i know i will never really be able to comprehend them while i am here. so i try to do my best to be christlike towards others in my life - because this is what is in my control (my actions).

this is what i believe god wants from me. if it does turn out that god exists, then i will feel that i did my best to do as god asked of me. if it turns out that god does not exist, i would still do the same, and hope i was able to have some positive effect on the lives of others.
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Old 02-03-2006, 07:49 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by gymeejet
hi amnesia,

you are attempting to conclude things about god that we just cant conclude. we can not rule out what god can do in this universe, just because we can not understand what is outside this universe, and how it works.

one of the biggest complaints that non-believers have is that believers make up god, or use god to explain the unexplainable. and i agree with you that this is done by many of us believers to one extent or the other.

but if god is able to create the universe, then one can not conclude that god is unable to violate the laws of the universe. we just have no idea about how things work in this "super-universe". our minds just can not fathom it, any more than an insect can think about advanced physics.

do i understand how god can violate the laws of physics ? of course not - i dont even try.

even though our minds and very existence can not fathom an existence without time, i suspect that time, as we know it, is only part of this universe. if this is true, and if the super-universe is as strange and different to us as i suspect, we just cant make any conclusions about what can or can not occur outside of this universe, or by god acting in this universe.

however, for the most part, since i do believe in free will, i also believe that god does not interact in this universe, for the most part. so it is not like i think god is running around all over, performing magic and such.

for example, i think you were discussing the actual "going to heaven", as being one of the main examples of god violating the laws of this universe - simply by taking us outside of it. lol.

with our limited brains, we all think of "going to heaven" in the same vein as "going to the store" - in other words going to some place. i really doubt that this is much of a good description of what really occurs, but it is a way for us to at least have an idea - much like how we would talk to a child about an adult situation. it isnt actually what happens, but it allows the child to have an understanding, based upon his level to comprehend.

and our level to comprehend everything is not like a child, but more than likely way less than a one-celled amoeba.

so the topics of god and the universe and such are of great interest to me, even though i know i will never really be able to comprehend them while i am here. so i try to do my best to be christlike towards others in my life - because this is what is in my control (my actions).

this is what i believe god wants from me. if it does turn out that god exists, then i will feel that i did my best to do as god asked of me. if it turns out that god does not exist, i would still do the same, and hope i was able to have some positive effect on the lives of others.
jeezuz..where do you come up with this horseshit??
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Old 02-03-2006, 08:32 AM   #404
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Gymeejet:

My issue with your approach is that it opens the door for anything whatsoever.

How do you know that fortune tellers aren't real? Maybe your god decided to let them violate the laws of the universe.

How do you know that Chriss Angel really doesn't levitate? Maybe your god decided to let him violate the laws of the universe.

How do you know that telekinesis, telepathy, etc don't exist? Maybe your god decided to let those people violate the laws of the universe.

Once you open the door to universal-law violations, anyone can come through. Is that really the universe in which you live?
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Old 02-03-2006, 10:42 AM   #405
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gymjet we are not like amoebas or insects. if given the answer to cosmology we would comprehend it. In fact given enough time we'll figure it our ourselves. I have stayed out of the course of discussion except to interject that sometimes the desire to prove god false is in iteself a sort of "religion". But that is an analogy I don't agree with. We have the ability to construct god and then defend him and to construct theories we can't prove. No we are not like insects.
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