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Old 09-25-2005, 08:45 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
Since you have so much to lose if you're wrong, wouldn't it be prudent to thoroughly investigate with an open mind, instead of immediately dismissing the possibility?
Why is it that you assume that it's my mind that is not open? I did once believe in gods and magic, until I realized that just because you want something to be true does not make it so. And just because priests have throughout the centuries given themselves power through fear, does not make their threats real---"so much to lose", indeed! That's what the priests say to keep their followers in line.

And gymeejet, even if the universe was created by something outside itself, there is still no reason to interject an intelligence into the process. Adding an intelligent being only complicates the matter---because you now have to explain away its existence. Adding an additional layer will never simplify things. If the universe was created by an outside force, why not just accept that its creation was a natural process?


as a catholic and a stoner it is interesting to read the paths and beliefs that people have chosen. first of all everyone has free will to believe what you choose to believe. it is not wise in my opinion to think there is no consequences for not believing. it is faith not fear that brings people to god. if it wasn't for god i wouldn't be here. there are several instances in my life where i would have easily been killed if not for god looking out for me.


I heard that an athiest can inherit eternal life if they lead a moral life according to his state of life? Even though he did not believe in God. Is that true?

The Church teaches that man should know by his very nature that there is a God who will judge him in the after life. Thus objectively speaking, men must acknowledge this to be saved. Personally, however, there may be reasons why individuals do not acknowledge this truth. They may have been raised that way. But only God can judge whether they are guilty or not for persisting in atheism or agnosticism. We do know that if a large number of people are in this condition, things will not go well in the social order, which needs natural religion to support a virtuous life. Hence the presence of atheists or agnostics in large numbers leads to a very sick social and moral order. Anyway, it makes no sense that, since God is the Creator of man, man not acknowledge and live according the ways of the Creator.

I recommend listening to sirius channel 160 sometime
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Old 09-25-2005, 09:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleBoomsky
...I really don't know. I probably don't believe in God. One thing is for sure I will not make up my mind based upon a fear of a negative consequence.

This is where religion has been so badly abused. UB
Uncle,

Dont misundertand my post. I did not say "make up your mind based upon fear". I said that based upon the fact that if an atheist is wrong, he is in pretty dire cicumstances should motivate an atheist to "research with an open mind" and not just dismiss the possibility. A lot is riding on whatever he decides, so wouldn't it be prudent to make sure he has fully researched it? Whatever he decides afterwards, he can at least say he made an informed decision.
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Old 09-25-2005, 09:36 PM   #33
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the catholic church used to teach that only catholics could get to heaven. even while i was still going to mass on sunday, they were backing away from that concept.

i have been told that at least some christian groups say that in regards to christians only getting to heaven. but i doubt that all christian teachings preach that.

"judge, lest ye not be judged" - this was speaking of trying to determine ourselves how god would judge someone else.

i think god works in different ways in different people, whether they be atheists or believers. one of my agnostic friends befriended a cat, and then took it upon himself to tend it for over 10 years, before it died. now i saw a lot of "jesus" in his behavior.

so i dont judge anyone in regards to where they will go. but i suspect that a lot of proclaimed atheists will get to heaven, and a lot of proclaimed believers will not get to heaven.
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Old 09-25-2005, 10:18 PM   #34
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gymeejet,

Just my two sents....

You're far better off trying to explain anything about God to people who want to hear it, or who ask about it.

People have this misconceived notion that you have to be perfect to get to heaven. Or that God is here to put you down and keep you down. Or that religion is only here to make people do what the powerful want them to do. Or that there is just to much information that says God does not excist.

Don't waist your time on them. Those that want to learn about Salvation will ask about it. Those that want to put their faith into something they don't understand will do so when the time is right. The only thing you can do is be there when they want to know.

Second...

For all the things we think we know, the less we really know.

The more I wanted to know how everything was made, the more I realized it didn't really matter. At least not in day to day life.

And the more I thought I knew what God wanted me to do, the less I really did.

Keep up the good work
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Old 09-25-2005, 10:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4BAMA
We do know that if a large number of people are [atheists], things will not go well in the social order, which needs natural religion to support a virtuous life. Hence the presence of atheists or agnostics in large numbers leads to a very sick social and moral order.
Umm...and the social order has done so well with believers in charge? Have you forgotten the war in Ireland or the Salem witch trials or all the problems in the Middle East or 9/11 or the Crusades?

Personally, I believe that it's religion, not the lack thereof, that leads to a sick social and moral order. All the people who believe (or claim to believe) that they're doing "God's work" or operating under divine guidance have really made a mess of the world.

Any social order that punishes those who do not believe in their philosophy (as many religions have done over the centuries) can hardly take the moral high ground.
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Old 09-25-2005, 10:33 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
I said that based upon the fact that if an atheist is wrong, he is in pretty dire cicumstances should motivate an atheist to "research with an open mind" and not just dismiss the possibility.
You talk about others' open minds---what about your own?

Have you taken a serious and objective look at your own beliefs? Do you really think that the path of magic, mysticism and miracles is superior to the path of rationality and logic? Do you really want to live your life that way---worrying about invisible angels and a promised afterlife, or would you rather live in this world that you know to be real?

Try to be objective about your own beliefs. Ask yourself what would have happened if your parents had been Muslim or Buddhist? Would you still hold the same beliefs you do now or would you be equally as fervent about a different philosophy?

Even if you can't give up your belief in the supernatural, perhaps a different god would be better for you. Give different religions a chance. Have you seriously considering becoming Hindu or Wiccan? Just keep an open mind...
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:21 AM   #37
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welcome to america, the place where everybody can have his/her own opinion about what ever the heck they want too, and I can or cannot agree with them on whatever level, so if you think god is a man or a sexy woman, then great, if you think god is a dog or a cat, wonderful, just remember to respect eachothers wishes and play nice or we will all watch reruns of "what's happening" and "perfect strangers".....take care.
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:15 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Tdcompton
My opinion, no!

Ditto!
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Old 09-26-2005, 02:11 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by gymeejet
i gave you one example, when one assumes that the universe has always been. they revolve around an "infinite amount of time having already elapsed".

the example i gave you was that of the universe in a state of expanse. scientists can evaluate different stages down the road. pick a number of years - lets say a billion, billion years from now. scientists can tell by the rate of expansion, about how far into the expansion it will go.

the paradox - why has it not reached that point already ?

there is an infinite number of (a billion, billion years) in infinity. a trillion, gazillion, bazillion, trizillion number of years. there is still an infinite number of them. take the absolute largest number that you can rally off in a minutes worth of time, and still an infinite number of that number of years has gone by.

anything that does not take an infinite amount of time to do, would have already been done. if it took an infinite amount of time, we would not be able to measure its rate of accomplishment.
another way of looking at this paradox is from the beginning, instead of the end. if the universe did not have a beginning, then nothing could exist unless it also had no beginning.

for how would it start ? it would have to wait for an infinite amount of time to elapse, before being born. at any point in time, there would have been an infinite amount of time before that. now i realize that an "infinite amount of anything" is ridiculous in our universe, which is one reason why the universe not having a beginning is a ridiculous concept.

the way this universe was created and the laws that apply, especially that of time, this is 100% conclusive proof that the universe must have had a beginning, which matches what science can fairly well deduce, as well.
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Old 09-26-2005, 03:20 PM   #40
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Default does god exist ?

I`m not going to say yes or no.I just live my life as the best person I can be and treat ppl the way I want to be treated.
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Old 09-26-2005, 06:02 PM   #41
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hi rc,

i reposted your comments here.

You are missing a key element. Quatum Mechanics. It is a fact. Well as close to facts as theories get. Like the atomic theory. Or the electron theory. Here is quantum mechanics in a nutshell.

Particles exist in a state of chaos until observed, at that point there is a probability that a single particle making up a box of cheez-Its could materialize into something else. A very high improbablity and early thought leaned toward infinite improbabilities breaking down the mechanics. In fact I believe it was Eisntein. I am leaving stuff out to simplify.

But these particles exists outside of time and space as we know it. Meaning a sub atomic particle of cheese dust not only apears here but also in some unkown location in the universe. Because of this we have to abandon the notion that particle trajectories have predetermined elements of time and space. And if this is the case, that quatum presence is everywhere at all times, then that concludes the loose notion that it must also exists outside the confines of this universe. Big Grin

It may interest you to know that even those who oppose additional universes conclude this one seems "destined" to support the building block of life.

MY REPLY:

quantum mechanics is basically a theory about the very small.

eisenberg's uncertainty principle states that is is impossible to know both the location and the velocity of some of these small particles, such as electrons - sorta going against the traditional planets revolving around the sun model.

or in other words, we can not know with total certainty BOTH where it is and where it is going, at the same time.

but i have not heard anything about particles actually existing at 2 places at the same time - and i doubt i would believe it.

however, this still talks about in this universe, subject to whatever laws describe this universe. outside of this universe, we know nothing, can theorize on nothing.

knowing that this universe was created by something outside of itself, still does not tell us anything about it. and this knowledge comes not from knowing anything about what is outside our universe, but simply by knowing about time, and other aspects that are in our universe.

are you by any chance, confusing quantum mechanics with string theory ?

i highly doubt that string theory is correct. to me, it begs the question that "strings" are made up of "points". we may eventually be able to tie relativity and qm together, and find the holy grail of physics. but it may be that neither r or qm is actually correct. even though theories and the math behind it, can make some good predictions, it does not mean that they are correct.

good example is newton and gravity. newton felt that there was some sort of attraction between particles of matter. einstein says that gravity warps spacetime, and that particles simply move in the path of least resistance.

i dont necessarily buy the concept of spacetime.

i think that r and qm will turn out to at least be good stepping stones. but are they actually correct, in and of themselves ? i am not quite so sure.
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Old 09-26-2005, 06:28 PM   #42
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I am still digesting some other post you have made. I will come at you from a time perspective. Not and assult but a point of view.

I'll toss in a few thoughts and run, it's commute time here...

I am glad you brought of the uncertainty principle. It is a building block. You are right there is no way to predict the exact location of a particle until it is measured in some way and we see it's location for a brief moment in time. Time and space are relative and gravity acts on it, where as time and space are shaped and altered by gravity. Thus the concept of space time can be seen in relation to our only real tangible object to grasp: Light particles.

String theory seems very strong and is related to quantum mechanics. The string vibrations are what make up particles. And it is in these quantume fluxuations of what is called the Quantum Field that the universe could have been forged (another feather for multiple universes).

Quote:
but i have not heard anything about particles actually existing at 2 places at the same time - and i doubt i would believe it.
Believe it. I read physics books on the toddy.
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Old 09-26-2005, 08:52 PM   #43
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Default Re: does god exist ?

There are hundreds of Gods and each is believed by thousands of people who are 100% sure they are right. That should tell you something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i suspect that the notion of "god" first came about as the answer to "who created the universe ?"

we know that the universe exists today.

therefore, either (1) the universe never had a beginning, or (2) the universe was able to create itself from nothing, or (3) something outside of this universe was responsible for its creation.

lets look at #1 - first this would break the cause and effect law, as there would have been no cause. secondly, it would undermine many other concepts. for example, we know thru hubble, that the universe is expanding still. we also know its rate of expansion. if it continues to expand forever, scientists can predict the density of the universe, at (10 to the 10th) years, and so on. but if the universe has always existed, then why is it still expanding ? since an infinite amount of time would have elapsed, without a beginning, the universe would already be at its end state. it seems pretty obvious to me that this conclusion is completely false, and even scientists think it had a beginning, in the big bang.

lets look at #2 - this also violates the cause and effect principle. also it begs the question of how is something created from nothing, when by definition, there is nothing.

#3 is all that is left - it seems to me to be the overwhelming correct choice. that is, that this universe was created by some phenomena that exists outside of the universe.

however, this is as far as we can go, because we are stuck in this universe. no assumptions about what is outside of "our black box" can be made, because all knowledge that we have pertains only to this universe. whether any of it applies outside this universe, will always be an unknown to us, while we are still in this universe.

things like space, size, shape, matter, time, mass, length, temperature, etc. may or may not have any meaning whatsoever outside of this universe. our minds could not exist without these concepts.

i do believe that god, or basically some sort of conscious entity, does exist, and is responsible for this universe, and others, if they exist at all. it just seems likely to me that something this complex is not something random.

i hope these things become clear to me if we do have a journey that we complete.
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:12 PM   #44
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touche. although i can truthfully say that i am not at all 100% sure i am correct. as i have told amnesia and others, i think it can be proven that something outside this universe was responsible for its creation.

i can only speculate on it being a god or not. and if so, whether jesus is actually part of that god.
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Old 09-26-2005, 11:21 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
as i have told amnesia and others, i think it can be proven that something outside this universe was responsible for its creation.
No, all you can do is suggest that you like that alternative best, given current knowledge.

For example, there's nothing to prove that the universe hasn't been in a constant cycle of expansion and contraction. Or maybe there's only one cycle---that time is a giant loop. We don't know. There are a lot of possibilities that I'm sure neither of us has thought of.
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