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Old 03-04-2006, 09:11 PM   #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
perhaps we are using the word "interpret" differently. because those are not the only 2 options, from my point of view.
How can that be?

Fact: Bad things are done in the name of religion.

That means that either:
A: The intention of the god or prophet was for bad things to happen
or
B: The people doing the bad things misinterpreted the god or prophet's intention.

Or if you'd prefer:
A: They got their god's intentions right
B: They got their god's intentions wrong

That's it: right or wrong.

I suppose there's also:
C: The people doing the bad things knew that their actions were not what the god or prophet intended (and may not actually believe in said god) but used the name of the god or prophet to drive their followers for other reasons

But I'm less interested in the deliberate con artists than I am the true believers...
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Old 03-04-2006, 09:47 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by gymeejet
hi amnesia,

perhaps we are using the word "interpret" differently. because those are not the only 2 options, from my point of view.

however, i use the word "interpret" to mean a real attempt to understand something. for example, we each read a difficult physics text. both of us may come up with different interpretations, but each of us are attempting to come up with a correct interpretation, or correct understanding.

most of the leaders in the past and even today who have used religious ideas to attempt to manipulate people were never attempting to interpret any sort of religious dogma. they simply wanted to get the masses doing something for them.

even today, people are easily swayed by the system - just look at the voting process. a 1000 years ago or more, and they were manipulated just that much more easily. maybe in 10,000 years mankind will have matured enough so that the masses can actually make wise decisions.
If the human race actually lasts that long. Also, maybe by that time we'll have figured out that there are no gods.
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Old 03-04-2006, 10:58 PM   #483
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cool to see everyones still around. i've enjoyed talking about god. just got back from vacation drinking some drinks in san diego. everyone has free will to believe what u choose. i have faith and i believe in god.

if u r interested here is what pulled me back in 2 my faith. father corapi's show on tv helped 2 change my life way cooler.

His experiences prior to ordination have been termed simply astounding, but that is probably somewhat of an overstatement. They might be called extreme, however. From small town boy to the Vietnam era US Army, from millionaire businessman in Las Vegas and Hollywood to drug addicted and homeless. check him out sometime very good speaker. tonight was a very interesting speach. on again tonight @ 12o am central on ewtn.

one of the stories he was talking about. he was in his ferrari with a famous actress who is still very well known today going a 150 mph and he had 6 oz of coke in the trunk and the police pull him over. told them 2 both get out of the car. worried about opening the trunk where the coke is. the police instead asked 2 see under the hood 2 check out the engine.


http://www.fathercorapi.com/tvdet.as...rID=2143154272

http://www.fathercorapi.com/bio.aspx
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Old 03-05-2006, 01:02 AM   #484
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gosh amnesia,

did you actually read my post ?

most bad things that have been done in the name of religion had nothing to do with the teachings of jesus or any other god. so of course i am talking about your point C.

look at saddam. it was well known throughout most of the world that he was not at all a religious person. but he still used a bunch of religious talk when he spoke to the iraqis.

the masses get brainwashed with religion very early on. the leaders are able to use this brainwashing to manipulate people. religion is not the only brainwashing that we receive. we receive all sorts of social brainwashing. the leaders, i.e. the wealthy, want to be able to manipulate the masses. they are even successful here in the states. they are unbelievably successful in the middle east.

do you really think the saudi sheiks are all into their islam religion ? i dont for a second.

you originally made a comment about religious people misinterpreting their god and doing terrible things. i am simply telling you that it had nothing to do with the teachings of jesus, confucius, or any other spiritual type of leader from the past.

i say i am doing something because it is what god wants me to do. that does not mean that i am being honest with you.

i think you will find almost all of this terrible crap from C - your con artists, as opposed to misguided believers.

as you must know, people make all sorts of rationalizations to condone or justify their actions. i get tired of it. someone the other day was telling me that red wine is good for you. "they" said so. first of all "they" in this world is mostly paid advertising, even though it may come cloaked in the form of a "study". funny how studies always prove whatever the people paying for the study wanted it to prove.

alcohol does absolutely nothing good for the body, in any amount. it does produce a toxin that the body tries to eliminate, and the liver can do that in certain amounts for certain lengths of time, but not forever. the blood-brain barrier has no defense for alcohol, which is why people drink it - but it does damage to the brain. if you want the damn phytonutrients that are in red wine, might i suggest one eat the grapes instead, which is the only reason why red wine has phytonutrients. however the grapes have a helluva lot more bang for the buck, so to speak. if one wants to drink the damn wine, just say so. dont insult my intelligence with silly rationalizations about how the wine is good for you.

bottom line is people can say all sorts of things, and imply that their actions are for all sorts of rationalized reasons. i take what most people say with a grain of salt. mostly they do what they want at the time, because they have little discipline, and no capability to take responsibility for their actions. so they did this because uncle john says so, and that because aunt mary says so, and if it is really bad because their god commanded them to do so.

religious scholars will debate different aspects of the bible, but it does not take a rocket scientist to understand the major gist of what jesus asked of us. any adult can understand the golden rule, and that alone will take you a long way towards living up to what jesus has asked of us.
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Old 03-05-2006, 01:45 AM   #485
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hi amnesia,

take a look at all the tv evangelists. it seems one by one they have come crumbling down with some sort of scandal. yet people are stupid enough to continue to believe that they are really sincere. again people talking about god - but their real goal is that of making money.

you want to believe in god, fine. if you dont, fine. but try to get past the rationalization of condemning spirituality because there are people who have and do use it as a guise for some other purpose. whenever i hear that from people, i immediately begin to think they have god-issues. which i have already told you that i believe that you do. i dont for one second believe you are as atheistic as you say you are. that is neither a compliment nor a put-down - simply an observation based upon my experience in life and my conversations with you.
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Old 03-05-2006, 07:51 AM   #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
did you actually read my post ?

most bad things that have been done in the name of religion had nothing to do with the teachings of jesus or any other god. so of course i am talking about your point C.
I did read your post. And it could easily have been interpreted to being focused on point B.

For example, it's certainly possible that the Church leadership during the Crusades believed in Christianity and yet encouraged the torture of nonbelievers. I can see why you would believe this to be against the purported teachings of Jesus.
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Old 03-05-2006, 12:11 PM   #487
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you are making the logic mistake of assuming that all of a believer's actions are spurred on by his "believer's" beliefs. people can believe in god, and still do stuff that they know is not based on said belief in god.

i grant you that most of the christian leaders were probably believers. although there were a helluva lot of greedy popes for a long period of time when the catholic church was the biggest financial entity on the planet, so i expect many of them were just into power and money.

and in past discussions, perhaps not with you, i have stated that the christian leaders were really only interested in getting the land back that the muslims had taken from them. so i dont blame them from a humanistic reason for fighting to get back what was theirs, but it had nothing to do with jesus and his teachings - which is what they used to get the masses involved. so while some actions from those specific leaders may indeed have been due to actual spiritual reasons, the crusades was not one of them.

a few weeks ago i did a bit of research on the crusades, and looked at the first crusade, which seems to be the one that is most documented. most of the really crappy stuff done by christians in that crusade was done by the PEOPLE'S ARMY, which was a ragtag group of men that the church had no ability to stop. they did a lot of pillaging and killing.

if you want to make the point that christians are capable of acting like animals just as lots of other humans, i totally agree. but it is not supported by the teachings of jesus - that's all i am saying. and if said christians took my advice and did follow those teachings, they would not be doing those crappy things - thereby the world would be better off, IF THEY HAD FOLLOWED THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS.

which is again what i have said. if people followed the teachings of jesus, we would be happier and have a better place to live. and i dont doubt that this would also apply to confucius and other spiritual people from the past.
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Old 03-05-2006, 12:31 PM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
and i dont doubt that this would also apply to confucius and other spiritual people from the past.
Why only spiritual people?

There have been many people who did not believe in magic who also had valid philosophies of life. I would argue that all else being equal, those philosophies are better because they don't require the followers to give up logic.
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Old 03-05-2006, 06:03 PM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Why only spiritual people?

There have been many people who did not believe in magic who also had valid philosophies of life. I would argue that all else being equal, those philosophies are better because they don't require the followers to give up logic.
1 Corinthians 1:18-25 (New International Version)


18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
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Old 03-05-2006, 09:47 PM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
and i dont doubt that this would also apply to confucius and other spiritual people from the past.
Why only spiritual people?

There have been many people who did not believe in magic who also had valid philosophies of life. I would argue that all else being equal, those philosophies are better because they don't require the followers to give up logic.
sure, i dont doubt that many people had excellent philosophies on life. in fact, i was thinking that confucius was strictly a humanist. i did not think he believed in a god, as we define it.

however, i would disagree with your statement about giving up on logic. as you can see, i have argued logically with you - why i think the odds as best as we can logically determine, are higher that god exists than that he doesnt exist.

but in either case, we are only talking about the "super universe", not our own universe. so the way i see it - jesus also gave us a humanistic rules to abide by here in this universe. he just added that there is a god above that.
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Old 03-05-2006, 11:31 PM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
so the way i see it - jesus also gave us a humanistic rules to abide by here in this universe. he just added that there is a god above that.
There's no "just" about it.

That's a big claim. He (supposedly) said that not only should people act nice, but that there's an invisible carrot and stick to enforce that...this fabled afterlife.

To me, that negates a lot of his (supposed) message. People should act nicely towards each other because it's the right thing to do, not because they will be punished with eternal hellfire if they don't.
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Old 03-06-2006, 02:53 AM   #492
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hi amnesia,

as you know, i was raised catholic - so i received the roman catholic version of everything like the article talks about. lol. we were taught religion thru our catechism. we seldom, if ever, actually read the bible. so since i am no expert on the bible, i need to do some research on it when someone asks me about something.

your comment about hell and jesus got me wondering just what does jesus say about hell in the bible.

i did not read the full article, cuz it is pretty long, but the summary at the end says this :

This study shows that when John the Baptist and Jesus used these terms in the gospels, they used language familiar to the Jews whom they taught. The Jews had heard this language no other way than in scenes of national judgment. While it is easy for us to read these passages in the New Testament from the point of view of enduring conscious punishment, we should read them as the Jews who heard them first. They had heard them in no other way than national judgment.

the url is http://dawson.fountaingateway.com/documents/samhell.htm

i dont think catholicism believes in hell any more - at least not in the way that it was taught to me and how you think about it - that of a place with the devil and pitchforks and burning in hot fire forever. hell, in my mind, is just the absence of jesus and heaven - which i think is somewhat comparable to what catholicism teaches now. boy, i am ever so proud to have accomplished the task of deleting all that brainwashing from my brain.
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Old 03-06-2006, 02:56 AM   #493
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what i suspect has occurred over time - is that the religious leaders, in need of a way to control their constituents, invented all this burning in hell. and i have to say they were the best salesmen ever. lol.
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Old 03-06-2006, 08:06 AM   #494
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Well, you should at least agree that there's a carrot, then...
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Old 03-06-2006, 09:14 PM   #495
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sure, if we are classifying "heaven" as the carrot. couldnt get much better than that.

however, i think there are many times where jesus talks about being good to one's neighbor without throwing the caveat of going to heaven in there.

it has been a standard remark of many, maybe most, christians that good deeds cant get you into heaven.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/2_heaven.htm

my interpretation is that at least part of our test here on earth is how we have treated others - for this is surely part of what jesus has asked of us.

and while loving god may be what gets us into heaven, it bites the question "what is loving god ?", or "how do we show that we love god ?".

surely anyone can say that they love god. but what did they do to demonstrate such love ?

i think i could get to heaven without a lot of good deeds. for example, i could be a good person, but a loner. god makes all of us differently, and we each end up travelling down different roads. i dont believe that getting to heaven is simply a yardstick measure of our "good deeds", but i do think it is a sign that we give god that we do want to be with him.

the funny thing for most people i think - is that most of us probably have received that you wont get to heaven or you will go to hell if you dont do such and such from our parents, etc. - whenever they wanted us to do something. and since we tend to be selfish anyways when we are young, i dont doubt that most of us start out doing good deeds as at least a cushion to help boost us up into heaven. but as god shines thru us as we mature, we do good deeds simply because we have allowed god into our hearts.

i believe this is also true for atheists like you amnesia. so i expect to see you right up there with me.
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