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Old 08-05-2006, 08:19 PM   #541
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hi dan,

actually i did think it was funny, if that is what you meant.

i was hoping to get a lot of responses to my last question, but as of yet - no one.
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Old 08-06-2006, 07:39 PM   #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
that this was at least good evidence that jesus is god.
No, the so-called prophecies are such that only believers would think that Jesus fulfilled them. For example:

Prophecy #1: Virgin birth.
The problem, of course, is that you have to believe in the whole virgin birth thing in order to believe that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy. Only Christians believe that Jesus's mother was a virgin and therefore only Christians would ever believe that this is a prophecy that Jesus fulfilled.

Prophecy #305: Kingdom everlasting.
Who says that this prophecy has been fulfilled? Christians?

Prophecy #358: Both God and Man.
Again, you have to first be a Christian before you could think that Jesus was both a god and a man.

The followers of David Koresh might use similar "prophecies" to "prove" that he was the Messiah. God and Man? Sure, his believers thought that. Does that make it true for Koresh? No. Does that make Koresh the Messiah? No.

Similarly, the fact that Christians believe these things about their god doesn't provide any objective merit to these so-called prophecies...

...not to mention that you have to be a magic-believer to think that there is such a thing as prophecies or fortune-telling or anything like that.
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:33 AM   #543
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Old 08-07-2006, 02:44 AM   #544
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hi amnesia,

i want to make sure that i am understanding you.

your basic argument is that the fulfilling of the prophecies in the old testament are things that are believed by christians, because they believe the new testament. is this correct ?

so, if we look at an old testament prophecy, we can indeed find a fulfillment of it in the new testament. however, the new testament fulfillment requires faith in the new testament - there is no concrete proof of it.

am i getting your drift ?
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:54 AM   #545
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There are two separate issues. Issue #1 is belief in the whole concept of fortune-telling. I hope you understand my problems with that. There is no objective proof that anyone can foretell the future. Therefore the whole idea of prophecies is a non-starter.

Issue #2 is that the fulfillment of the prophecies is only believed by followers of the particular Messiah-candidate.

Look at it this way:

Let's say that there was a prophecy that said that the Messiah would be born of a virgin.

If David Koresh claimed that his mother was a virgin when he was born, does that make him the Messiah? No, of course not.

Well, why not? Because only his followers would believe his (outrageous) claim that his mother was a virgin when he was born. His followers might use that as "proof" of his divinity, but to you and me it's not proof of anything because we don't believe that his mother was a virgin. (And why not? Because we recognize that it's not scientifically possible.)

So if virgin birth isn't proof of Koresh's divinity, the exact same argument demonstrates that it's also not proof of Jesus's divinity. The only people taken in by the whole "Virgin Mary" concept are Christians. The rest of us recognize that it's not scientifically possible---just like it wasn't possible for Mama Koresh.
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:12 PM   #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
There are two separate issues. Issue #1 is belief in the whole concept of fortune-telling. I hope you understand my problems with that. There is no objective proof that anyone can foretell the future. Therefore the whole idea of prophecies is a non-starter.
by definition, god is not of this universe, and can do all. so i see this as a moot issue, in what we are currently discussing. now if i was claiming that another human being could tell the future, you would have an excellent point.

now to get to point 2.
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:19 PM   #547
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okay, so i did understand you correctly, with regards to point 2.

however, your statement about it not being scientifically possible is off on 2 counts. if god exists, then all is possible with god. but even today an embryo could be implanted inside a virgin female, and she could give birth without ever having intercourse.

so you have taken 3 ot/nt examples, and shown that while the nt fulfills the ot, the fulfilled prophecy in the nt can not be scientifically proven.

let me ask you another question. you may not want to scan thru all the fulfillments, but are there any of which you are aware that might bear scientific proof ?

i am simply in search of the truth, here. are all these fulfillments something that christians simply accept as being true ? or do some have some scientific proof behind them ?
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:36 AM   #548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
now if i was claiming that another human being could tell the future, you would have an excellent point.
But you are claiming that! How are these prophecies known? Did a god write them in big letters in the sky? No---a human being claimed to know the future. That is exactly what we're discussing.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:48 AM   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
however, your statement about it not being scientifically possible is off on 2 counts. if god exists, then all is possible with god. but even today an embryo could be implanted inside a virgin female, and she could give birth without ever having intercourse.
First off, the notion of a god impregnating a women is not scientifically possible. Perhaps you could claim that it's magically possible, but it's not scientifically possible.

As for the whole medical implantation thing, that's not what Christians claim happened with Mary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
so you have taken 3 ot/nt examples, and shown that while the nt fulfills the ot, the fulfilled prophecy in the nt can not be scientifically proven.
Actually, I've shown that the NT claims to fulfill the prophecy. That's quite different. For example, perhaps early Christians came up with the whole Virgin Mary idea in order to claim that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
you may not want to scan thru all the fulfillments, but are there any of which you are aware that might bear scientific proof ?
The only ones that seem like that to me are the less fantastic ones, like 234 (from a poor family) or 224 (spat upon). Of course, after all this time, it's more a historical issue than a scientific one. But at least with more objective prophecies like these, it'd be more straightforward to determine if a contemporary Messiah-candidate fit the bill...
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:59 AM   #550
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Old 08-08-2006, 12:01 PM   #551
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Takes a lot of methampetamine or LSD to make these kinds of discussions amusing.
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Old 08-08-2006, 01:15 PM   #552
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To quote from SouthPark:

"Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb,"

Sung to Bingo the Dog.


Seriously, if it makes you happy, great. I'm glad for you. But don't hassle the rest of us.

This is a stupid argument.

I think deep down everyone has thier own religion. They just choose to fit one of the more popular ones into thier mindframe. Example: A Catholic who thinks preachers should be able to marry isn't really a Catholic. They feel they cannot leave the church without going to hell, so instead, they let it go and try to "fight it from the inside". Or better yet, some religions hold elections to vote on what the priciples are (should gays be allowed to preach???)......democracy trumps god!!

I am happy to base my religion on science and for a filler I like worshiping all gods, even the crazier ones (not the blood orgy types though, I've had enough of that in my life already), 'cause in the end, they all have some good information to pass on. I call it the church of Elahrairah, and no, you cannot join. Go join your own church.

How I worship may seem to be empty to some of you. I don't go and sing in unison with others, and I don't participate in rituals.

I do it by living my life day to day without harming anyone or anything to the best of my ability and should I see an old lady crossing the street slowly, I won't honk and try to rush her along. I'm OK with that.

The best part about my religion is that I don't have to pay anyone to "help spread the word". I am happy to keep it to myself. I trust you are all smart enough to have your own "word".
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Old 08-08-2006, 01:19 PM   #553
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This isn't an argument on religion, it's a argument on if God Really does exist...
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Old 08-08-2006, 01:26 PM   #554
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Anyone that says God doesn't exist has obviously never seen Salma Hayek in a bikini:

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Old 08-08-2006, 01:32 PM   #555
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I very much believe in God, but I won't try to prove His existence to anyone. God is real to me because I have faith. Whether someone believes or not is their decision.
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