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Old 08-08-2006, 01:38 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by 7Aaron
I very much believe in God, but I won't try to prove His existence to anyone. God is real to me because I have faith. Whether someone believes or not is their decision.
I couldn't have put it better myself...
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Old 08-08-2006, 04:22 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by semipenguin
This isn't an argument on religion, it's a argument on if God Really does exist...

On the surface, you are right. Most "religion" is a system of beliefs, however, religion can also be the belief itself.

What I was trying to get across (perhaps I should have added a sentence at the end) was just what 7Aaron said.

I see all sorts of back and forth here and so I put in my two cents. Meaning mostly the idea of Church of Elahrairah (I wonder if I can get tax immunity) and the theory behind it. I form a church 'cause none of the others fit my mentality. I also choose to deny membership to anyone else 'cause I know they won't have the same mentality either.

I laugh when I hear people on Fox News (and other places) say things like "and he's so stupid he thinks he's going to get 70 virgins in heaven" and I think "yeah, but you're so stupid you think Jesus came back to life after he died". Who is the more stupid? Hard to measure. But both are 100% right because they choose to believe it for themselves.....which I applaud. It's when they put down others that they come across as so tacky that I can't imagine anyone would want to join with people like that.

To argue on someone's beliefs is just as futile as arguing over religion. Those who believe, what they believe and the level of belief is a very personal thing. Conversion is very difficult, and most likely will not occur on a Sirius thread.

It would be easier to have an argument over wheather the Steelers cheated or not.

Debate is always a good thing, and I am not trying to muffle it. I just don't want people to get pissed off because "nobody is listening to me".....in this type of debate, nobody will listen to you (except your allies).
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Old 08-08-2006, 08:59 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by Amnesia
But you are claiming that! How are these prophecies known? Did a god write them in big letters in the sky? No---a human being claimed to know the future. That is exactly what we're discussing.
no, this is not what we are discussing. jesus claimed to be god, and therefore knew the future. BIG, BIG difference.

if jesus is god, then jesus is not a human being. he may have taken on the form of a human being, and been able to feel the pains and happinesses as human beings feel. but other human beings are not god.

so either jesus was just another human being, or he was god and came to visit us in the form of a human being. if he was the former, he had no ability to read into the future - simply because of how time manifests itself within this universe that we are all stuck in during our lifetime.

if jesus was god, then he is not of this universe, and therefore not necessarily constrained by its laws, even when he visits this universe. none of us can even imagine what sort of capacities some being that originates from outside this universe has or doesnt have.

i am still on my spiritual journey, and want to still become better informed. what sorts of things am i accepting, and what sorts of things have proof.

i have already given you scientific reasoning why i suspect that a god exists, as we typically define god to be. at least so far in our discussions here, there does not seem to be any scientific evidence pointing to jesus being god - which would then mean it is 100% faith or acceptance without proof.
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Old 08-08-2006, 09:38 PM   #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
no, this is not what we are discussing. jesus claimed to be god, and therefore knew the future.
I thought you were talking about prophecies that appeared in the Old Testament. Right? And you believe that the stories in the New Testament somehow validate them, right?

The prophecies in the Old Testament were not written by Jesus. They were written by some men long before Jesus was born. Men. Humans. Who claimed to be able to prophesize about the future---fortune telling.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:59 PM   #560
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It really doesn't matter what we all believe in. The government throws Christianity down our throats. Examples, Christmas as a National holiday. What about Easter? While it is not an official holiday, it might as well be.

What about Yom Kippur? What about Ramadah(sp)? What about the important Hindu holidays as well as other religions? If you want to take a day off of school/work for these holidays, you have to use your own time.

I guess none of us will 100% really know until we are dead, until then, our belief is our best guess.
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Old 08-09-2006, 01:32 AM   #561
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hi amnesia,

i have several points of discussion. will get to at least one of them tomorrow.

hi badmotherfarker, Elahrairah, 7Aaron, cooper243 -

welcome to the discussion. other than a few rude posters, this thread has been filled with good information, shared in a mature way. my purpose for this thread was never to definitively prove/disprove the existence of god, or that of proving that jesus was god. i have said several times that we can not prove something outside of this universe, while we are stuck in this one, using the tools that are relevant to this universe.

however, we can share information. we can see what sorts of things we know, and what sorts of things we have simply accepted. and of those things that we have accepted, we can at least discuss any sort of evidence that might lean us towards one conclusion or the other.

i have overcome my catholic brainwashing, but still want to further my spirituality. i feel i can do this best by coming to a better understanding of that which i know, suspect, or have accepted. i know i will never come to a complete understanding, but i think i can come to a better understanding.

assuming god exists, i have to assume that this is what he has intended for us. if he wanted us to know definitively, he would have given us definitive proof. since he did not, i must assume he wants us to struggle with it. it does seem like a certain amount of struggle in any part of our life, improves us. so perhaps by taking the time to struggle with our spirituality, instead of just accepting our brainwashing our whole lives, also improves us in some way. perhaps it helps to make us more tolerant, or in other ways that make us a better asset to the rest of humanity.

in any case, feel free to share your thoughts if you like. i just hope we can continue to keep this thread on a constructive level.
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Old 08-09-2006, 01:47 AM   #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
I thought you were talking about prophecies that appeared in the Old Testament. Right? And you believe that the stories in the New Testament somehow validate them, right?

The prophecies in the Old Testament were not written by Jesus. They were written by some men long before Jesus was born. Men. Humans. Who claimed to be able to prophesize about the future---fortune telling.
This is something that might blow your mind.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now, if I can try and explain this, from what I get of this, God is the Word. The Word became flesh, ie, the Word became Jesus. So Jesus is the Word, and the word is God.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Seems to me if the Word is God, then the Prophecies of the Old Testament were written by God, who is the Word, who is Jesus.

I hope I have explained this. Sometimes I'm not very good at explaining things.

But of course, you'd have to believe in God to believe in any of this...
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:28 PM   #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semipenguin
Seems to me if the Word is God, then the Prophecies of the Old Testament were written by God, who is the Word, who is Jesus.
I think you're mixing up a bunch of things here.

Are you suggesting that the phrase "the Word is God" indicates that anything ever written by anybody is really a god's doing? Indirectly, I guess I can see how people might believe that, but in terms of actually providing some sort of divine inspiration for prophecies, I don't see how it's relevant.

The phrase "the Word is God" doesn't mean that biblical prophecies are true (or that a god said them) any more than it means that...say...The Da Vinci Code was true or that a god wrote it instead of Dan Brown.

Secondly, if you're talking about a phrase in the Old Testament, then you can't jump into the whole Jesus bit---he was a character in the New Testament, which was written long afterwards.
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Old 08-09-2006, 01:48 PM   #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Are you suggesting that the phrase "the Word is God" indicates that anything ever written by anybody is really a god's doing?
Yes. Much like what I said to gymeejet. If God can create the universe, why can't God get his word out through man?

In the Old Testament, God walked with man, then dwelt in the Tabernacle.

In the New Testament, God walked with man again, as the Son of God. Then through His Word. There's no need for God to show himself to man when His Word is here to communicate to man...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
Secondly, if you're talking about a phrase in the Old Testament, then you can't jump into the whole Jesus bit---he was a character in the New Testament, which was written long afterwards.
The Son of God is talked about in the Old Testament. Daniel 3:25 talks about the Son of God being in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:25 PM   #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semipenguin
The Son of God is talked about in the Old Testament.
Perhaps, but that doesn't make Jesus the son referenced in the Old Testament---you need to go to the New Testament for that claim.
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:35 PM   #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnesia
I thought you were talking about prophecies that appeared in the Old Testament. Right? And you believe that the stories in the New Testament somehow validate them, right?

The prophecies in the Old Testament were not written by Jesus. They were written by some men long before Jesus was born. Men. Humans. Who claimed to be able to prophesize about the future---fortune telling.
gotcha. i thought you were talking about what jesus had done.

actually, then, i agree with you - in my mind, i had already assumed the notion that the old testament was inspired by god. i really empathize with you and others for thinking that is a big stretch. it is a pretty big stretch for me, as well.

but certainly, if the ot was written with no divine help or guidance, then anyone from the nt fulfilling said statements, would be meaningless. on that we can certainly agree.
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Old 08-11-2006, 12:22 AM   #567
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As for the whole medical implantation thing, that's not what Christians claim happened with Mary.
i am curious. just what do you think christians claim happened with mary ? in all my catholic training, i cant think of one time where we were given any details. i think it might surprise you on just how hazy the typical christian is on this subject.
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Old 08-11-2006, 12:26 AM   #568
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We were always taught that she was assumed into heaven.
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:44 AM   #569
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hi dan,

yes, that is the "assumption" - how she went to heaven.

i was mainly speaking about the birth of jesus. i think if you asked 10 christians, you might just get 10 different variations.
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:51 AM   #570
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what we do know is that mary did not have intercourse, and that joseph is not the biological father. those 2 things are traditionally taught in all flavors of christianity, that i know.

but here are some that i dont know.

1) was mary the biological mother ? in catechism, i was simply taught that mary gave birth to jesus. of course when you start learning in first grade, there is only so much detail they can give you.

2) i think we know that mary had a typical 9-month pregnancy. but if there was a sperm and egg used, i dont know whose it was.

3) was the embryo of jesus placed in mary, and she was basically the incubator ? this is what i tend to believe. while god could do anything, it seems a bit strange to me that jesus/god would have been formed from some other human being's egg or sperm.
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