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Old 12-26-2006, 09:04 PM   #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
1) many people claim to have a personal relationship with god, in whatever form that may be.

there are 2 reasons that i dont believe this.

first, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that our brains would understand something in a higher dimension. and every bit of evidence that shows that our brains can not understand this. heck, our brains can become delusional in this world. often we have problems separating stuff in our dreams from actual events.
Just because we may not have all the answers doesn't mean we can't have a personal relationship with God. My baby daughter doesn't understand a lot of things yet, but she knows that I love her and take care of her. God is our father. He has supplied us with all we need to know through Jesus and the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
second, all these people who claim this, all tell different stories. some are of this belief and some of that belief. if god really was communicating with these people, they would all be hearing the same story. so it seems obvious to me that what these people are actually doing - is saying that they have this relationship, based purely on their religious teachings, and not at all on a real event.
All I can say about that is that it's not necessary for me to know why others believe differently. I've got to focus on my own beliefs.

(This is the part where a non-believer will probably come along and call me brainwashed for believing the way I do. Because I believe as my parents do.)

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Originally Posted by gymeejet
the bible teaches us that we can not earn our way to heaven. i disagree with this. i think just the opposite - we must earn our way to heaven. dont confuse "earning your way" to "being worthy".
So, you do believe in Heaven?
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Old 12-27-2006, 11:37 AM   #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Aaron
Just because we may not have all the answers doesn't mean we can't have a personal relationship with God. My baby daughter doesn't understand a lot of things yet, but she knows that I love her and take care of her. God is our father. He has supplied us with all we need to know through Jesus and the Bible.
hi aaron,

we dont have all the answers, for sure - WE DONT HAVE ANY ANSWERS.

as i said previously, many, many people claim to have a personal relationship with god - yet these people are comprised of many religious thought patterns, and cant even agree on the god. every group says that their god is the true god.

your baby knows that you love her, because you are known to her. she doesnt have to believe it, because she has tangible evidence.

your beliefs about god is something that you were taught to believe. you have no evidence of said beliefs.

i certainly am not knocking your beliefs. as i have said many times before, i still lean heavily on the theistic side of the fence - just pointing out that any sort of belief in god is not backed by any information or proof.
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Old 12-27-2006, 11:56 AM   #648
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Sure Gym,
You said that there are dimensions that we can not even try to understand and then in the second part you said if God was talking to these people then they would all be saying the same thing. Like it was with my Muslim friend I say if God is so powerful why does he have to use our logic? Why do you think that God would have to give these people all the same informaton? If he comes from a deminsion that we can not understand then how can we expect him to do things we understand? In our limited minds we think it is X,Y,Z, but to him the X,Y, and Z are meaningless. Because he does not follow the logic we use and can understand does it mean he doesn't exist? (I realize this is very philosophical but God is very hard to explain, that is why we have faith.)
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Old 12-27-2006, 12:33 PM   #649
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okay, i get it now.

my first statement had to do with us understanding what god is, etc.

the second has to do with what god wants of us. he needs to come down to our level. if it was his goal to communicate to us who he was, he would not tell different people different stories.

i am gymeejet. i dont tell you that i am gymeeairplane and another person that i am somebody else. i simply tell all of you that i am gymeejet. god would tell us all the same thing about who he is, if he indeed wanted us to know.
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Old 12-27-2006, 05:56 PM   #650
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No, that's Alanis Morrisette.
Lol. That feaked me out.
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Old 12-28-2006, 05:26 PM   #651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Aaron
All I can say about that is that it's not necessary for me to know why others believe differently. I've got to focus on my own beliefs.

(This is the part where a non-believer will probably come along and call me brainwashed for believing the way I do. Because I believe as my parents do.)
i dont think i ever implied that it was necessary for you to know why others believe differently.

something to think about - when you say focus on your own beliefs, take some time to answer some hard questions for yourself. ask yourself why you believe what you do. be honest. the overwhelming percentage of people simply believe what they were told as children. so in essence, your beliefs are not your own. they were drilled into you at a young and impressionable age. and for the most part, this brainwashing process keeps us from focusing on our beliefs, because our ability to focus was removed from us, as children.

i am not suggesting that you do anything that i havent already done. i am not telling you that a new conclusion will make you happier. it more than likely will make you less happy. but for a theist to be able to admit that one is not sure that god exists or not is a scary step. but i feel it is one that the theist must take, if said theist wants to advance his spirituality.

another thought - it may very well be part of god's purpose for us not to have a definitive answer to the question of his existence. in that case, god would not want us hanging on to some story that we have been told - since even if the story of god and heaven is true, it may be that god never revealed that to anyone on the planet. and for us to believe it, because we rationalize that god told us, does not bring us any closer to him.
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Old 12-28-2006, 07:16 PM   #652
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gymeejet,
You're right in that I probably wouldn't be a Christian right now if my parents were atheist. I did take from them. But, I have made my own decisions over the years. There are aspects of Christianity that my beliefs differ from my parents as well as the church. So, I have done some independent thinking.

I keep going back to this in my arguments -- the Bible. To me, we do have some knowledge and answers about our God. It's all in the Bible. But, in order to see it that way, you have to accept what's in the Bible. In addition to its teachings, the Bible is also a historical document. Jesus, as the Son of God, was also a human being. He supplied us with all the knowledge I need to know. It's in the Bible.

No, I'll never be able to produce tangible evidence that God exists, but I have no reason to doubt what I believe in.
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:25 PM   #653
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I never would have imagined this subject for a Sirius forum, so this is interesting. I know others have touched on the different beliefs out there and I just wanted to say that I think a lot of the problems many encounter from the different beliefs expressed have to do with the goals of each religion. Some on this forum have expressed a dislike of the way some "push" their beliefs on others. As far as Christianity goes, this is true because the main goal is to spread the gospel/the Word and so for a true believer, others are going to get that in-your-face attitude. This is usually only practiced by fundamentalist Christians. Other religions are more of a closed system where it is almost impossible to join/convert (have to be born into it or maybe by marriage also). These same religions don't preach it like Christianity. My point is once you understand the driving force behind a religion or belief system, you can better understand why they believe (or not believe) in God (or gods) and I believe this helps in understanding the different viewpoints about God's existence (or not). If you ever have the opportunity to talk to someone from India or China about a Christian-based belief, you will really learn a lot about beliefs you took for granted that others have not heard of before. Of course, when they talk about their beliefs (which can be difficult because a lot of non-Christian folks don't really talk about their beliefs much for the reasons I mentioned previously), they tell you things you will think are impossible to believe, but millions (billions) do.
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Old 12-29-2006, 01:15 PM   #654
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I was setting on a park bench eating a sandwich minding my own business enjoying the many ladies jogging by in their skin tight shorts. Some dude starts talking to me. Obviously I looked "lost". He asked me if I was drowning and Jesus offered to save me would I accept. This is an obvious attempt to try and get me to buy the concept of "salvation". I said I would pull him under with me.
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Old 12-30-2006, 03:11 AM   #655
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In my opinion the bible has man's fingerprints all over it. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs -- and I believe the bible was made up a long time ago by the ruling class trying to control people through fear.

If you believe in the bible you can't be selective. Either it's the word of God or it isn't. Consider the following:

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:9


So God wants me to kill that many teenagers?

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:10


Then it's also okay if I kill about half of my co-workers.


If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house
Deuteronomy 22:20-1


Again, this means about 50% of all the girls in this country must have stones thrown at them until they die. Maybe this just needs to be updated ... but notice God never talks to us humans any more. There must be a reason; think about it.


If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Exodus 21:20-21


So according to the bible, the whole concept of slavery isn't even a question, just the rules of slavery.


Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:9, 13:15


In the words of George Carlin: "....but he loves you."


For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Exodus 35:2


Sorry, but I have trouble believing God wants all those gas station attendants, supermarket cashiers, airline pilots and toll-takers put to death just for working on the Sabbath. Okay, I can understand about the toll-takers, but come on.

Sorry if I offended anyone, and I'm not even addressing the issue of whether God exists. It's just that if I'm going to believe the bible is truly God's word I can't pick and choose the parts I believe. I don't believe God wants me to stone to death the girl at the Burger King drive-thru on Sunday, so therefore I believe the bible is not the word of anybody except a bunch of "haves" in the first century attempting to keep the "have-nots" in line.
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Old 12-30-2006, 10:35 PM   #656
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We're living under the New Testament, not the Old Testament. We don't live under the law anymore...
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:58 PM   #657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Aaron
gymeejet,
You're right in that I probably wouldn't be a Christian right now if my parents were atheist. I did take from them. But, I have made my own decisions over the years. There are aspects of Christianity that my beliefs differ from my parents as well as the church. So, I have done some independent thinking.

I keep going back to this in my arguments -- the Bible. To me, we do have some knowledge and answers about our God. It's all in the Bible. But, in order to see it that way, you have to accept what's in the Bible. In addition to its teachings, the Bible is also a historical document. Jesus, as the Son of God, was also a human being. He supplied us with all the knowledge I need to know. It's in the Bible.

No, I'll never be able to produce tangible evidence that God exists, but I have no reason to doubt what I believe in.
hi aaron,

i am glad to hear that you have done some independent thinking. i would suggest that you always do so - your job does not necessarily stop at some point.

our brainwashing does not go away all at once. very slowly, some of us relieve ourselves of it.

most christians receive a good helping of guilt should we consider altering our belief patterns. this is all part of the brainwashing. for instance, we are taught that to think differently is to offend god. if this doesnt work, we are also told we will bring on the wrath of god. this keeps many people from ever doing any independent thinking.

it is a big step to get past that. but the way i look at it, god wants us to do this very thing. we are not supposed to accept beliefs just because someone told us to believe it.

do you recall the parable about the master giving a good amount of money to 2 servants ?

one was proud because he buried it in the ground, and then gave it back to the master. the other one invested it, and made more. the purpose of the parable was to explain to us that god wanted us to do something with our lives, and try to expand on the talents that we were given. the same is true with our thinking process. god gave us a brain. dont be afraid to use it.
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:58 PM   #658
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So, you do believe in Heaven?
from dictionary.com - BELIEVE

to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so

that is hard for me to give you an answer, other than i dont know. to say anything rational about a belief in heaven, one would have to have some factual information about heaven. there is none.
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Old 01-04-2007, 11:50 PM   #659
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hi mem,

CHRISTianity is believing that jesus was god, and showed himself to us through the form of a human being.

it is not defined as believing in the bible.

it is not defined as believing in the trinity. most of the different christian sects argue about that, even today.

the old testament is an absolute embarrassment to me. and as i was telling aaron, we have a brain - to think for ourselves.

in no way can we tie the old testament to the teachings of jesus. they are too DIFFERENT. if god is a loving father type of figurehead, then there is no way that the old testament describes god in any sort of correct fashion.

that being said, christianity is following the teachings of jesus. please show me where it is attributed in the bible that jesus said to kill heretics.

i have tons of things to say about how bad the catholic church was, even in my time. i dont have to go back 100 years and more. but they never taught us to think it was okay to kill non-believers. my worst gripe about them was that they taught us that non-catholics could not get to heaven.

mind you, non-catholics, not non-believers. the cc is a horrible brainwashing entity.
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:59 PM   #660
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gymeejet, I like to think of the old testament to the first month I was in Marine Corps Bootcamp. In Bootcamp, you can't so anything by yourself. You can't eat, sleep, (poop), anything without having a drill instructor around you. You can't talk without being talked to. You can't move your eyes unless your DI tells you too. The DI's have only one mission, and that's to break you down and build you back up. You can't do anything unless being told to do it.

The second month was much the same, except not as bad. You're doing more stuff like learning how to fire a rifle, learning how to survive out in the field. But you still had a DI there at most times telling you what to do.

Then in the last month of bootcamp, they gave you more freedom to do what you need to do to prepare for graduation and move on the the Fleet Marine Force. Much like the New Testament.

If you think of humanity as a whole, there was a reason why things were much different in the Old Testament then they are now. We may not live in the Old Testament, but it's still there for us to look back on. Not just as a way to live, but also as a history book.

Jesus was a progressive thinker. When the priests of the day came to him and asked them if they should stone a woman that was caught in adultly, he told them that "He who is without sin, cast the first stone."

Wow!... That goes against what the Old Testament says. So how can God The Son go against what God The Father said to do years ago? I don't know. It's not for me to understand. Maybe in the future these thing will be reveled.

Remember, someone in the New Testament said the Jesus did not come to break the Law, but that the Law through him could be fulfilled.

Jesus also said that We are to love Thy God with all thy heart, and all thy mind, and all thy soul...and to love thy neighbor, as they self. If you do those two things, you obey all of God's commandments.

Now some people have, and still do, use the Bible for there own gain. Just because someone says they have come in the name of God doesn't mean it's true. Some are just misguided. Other are really out to hurt people. These horrible people will be dealt with in time.

Just because someone says they are a Christian, doesn't mean they are...
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