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Old 01-05-2007, 09:26 PM   #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
hi mem,

CHRISTianity is believing that jesus was god, and showed himself to us through the form of a human being.

it is not defined as believing in the bible.
Perhaps, but the vast majority of Christians belong to sects that teach that the entire Bible is the inspired word of God. The Catholic church teaches this, and it has 1.1 billion members. When we speak of Christianity we must include their views.

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Originally Posted by gymeejet
that being said, christianity is following the teachings of jesus. please show me where it is attributed in the bible that jesus said to kill heretics.
From the Sermon on the Mount (NIV):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The "Law" he's referring to is that presented in the Torah, which is very explicit in its instructions to kill non-believers.

Jesus also says in John 10:35 that the scripture can't be broken. In 2 Timothy 3:15-17 Paul says that all scripture is "God-breathed".
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Old 01-06-2007, 11:52 PM   #662
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hi mem,

people tend to interpret things the way they want them to be. you dont seem to be actively searching for the truth. this can also be said about most theists.
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Old 01-07-2007, 12:47 AM   #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
people tend to interpret things the way they want them to be.
The point I was making on the other forum was that the Bible is easy to interpret in different ways because it is internally inconsistent. That makes it a poor basis for morality, ethics or law. You can use the Bible to justify love or hate, peace or war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
you dont seem to be actively searching for the truth.
What gives you that idea?

Last edited by memebag; 01-07-2007 at 01:05 AM..
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Old 01-08-2007, 12:08 AM   #664
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The point I was making on the other forum was that the Bible is easy to interpret in different ways because it is internally inconsistent. That makes it a poor basis for morality, ethics or law. You can use the Bible to justify love or hate, peace or war.
i think in our conversations, i have attempted to separate the teachings of jesus from the rest of the bible.

to me, the old testament is a jewish history book, with a jewish bias, with an underlying tone that their god was gonna rescue them from all of their enemies. it simply shows that the jews had no idea whatsoever of god, if you compare that to what jesus said. no wonder the jews still dont believe in jesus. there is no way to reconcile the god of the jews with the god that jesus spoke about. you either take one, the other, or neither. there is no mix and match.

if you want to dig into christianity so that you can call yourself even a little bit learned, then you would have already known that the teachings of jesus and the teachings of the old testaments are not even similar.

so to use that phrase from the sermon on the mount to justify your conclusion that jesus was all for all of the old testament, shows a true lack of understanding about the teachings of jesus. i will touch more on this when i have time to answer your second question of why i believe you are not looking for the truth, but rather a way to bolster up your decision to be atheistic, that you have already made, irregardless of what you find - which is why people only look for ideas that will make them comfortable with their pre-made decisions. like i said, theists do this as much as atheists, so i am not knocking your choice, but rather what i perceive to be your methods used to arrive at your conclusion.

so for the last time, please dont confuse christianity with the bible. CHRISTianity is about the teachings of jesus, plain and simple.

i dont care what other christian groups teach. if you want to debate the correctness of other christian groups, fine - we can do that. dont confuse the teachings of other groups with christianity.

i was raised a catholic for most of my life, so i probably know a lot more than you do about the catholic church. you say they consecrate the bible ? did you know that one of the biggest complaints about the catholic church from other christians is just the opposite ? the catholic church does not emphasize the bible at all. in my catholic schooling, we learned from catechisms. at mass (church), we read from the mass books and hymnals. i dont recall once being asked to open the bible in all my years as a catholic. so what groups say and what they practice arent always the same.
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Old 01-08-2007, 02:10 AM   #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i think in our conversations, i have attempted to separate the teachings of jesus from the rest of the bible.

to me, the old testament is a jewish history book, with a jewish bias, with an underlying tone that their god was gonna rescue them from all of their enemies. it simply shows that the jews had no idea whatsoever of god, if you compare that to what jesus said. no wonder the jews still dont believe in jesus. there is no way to reconcile the god of the jews with the god that jesus spoke about. you either take one, the other, or neither. there is no mix and match.
You sound a bit like some of the gnostics who were eradicated by the Roman church. They believed the god of the Old Testament was actually Yaltabaoth, a blind, dumb demiurge that created our flawed physical universe. Those are your interpretations, but they aren't the only possible interpretations, and they are far from popular in modern Christian beliefs.

Have you read the Nag Hammadi library?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
if you want to dig into christianity so that you can call yourself even a little bit learned, then you would have already known that the teachings of jesus and the teachings of the old testaments are not even similar.
And I have, but we aren't talking about what I know. We're talking about what Christians believe. You are free to reject the passage in the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus says Mosaic law still applies, but it's entirely reasonable to accept that passage and reject others. There's nothing objectively more "correct" about one interpretation than the other. That's the problem with using an internally inconsistent document to support morality or law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
so to use that phrase from the sermon on the mount to justify your conclusion that jesus was all for all of the old testament, shows a true lack of understanding about the teachings of jesus.
It isn't my conclusion that Jesus endorsed Mosaic law, especially when it comes to killing non-believers. That is the logic followed by the Catholic church when it came to killing Muslims, Pagans, Eastern Orthodox Christians and even Jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i will touch more on this when i have time to answer your second question of why i believe you are not looking for the truth, but rather a way to bolster up your decision to be atheistic, that you have already made, irregardless of what you find - which is why people only look for ideas that will make them comfortable with their pre-made decisions. like i said, theists do this as much as atheists, so i am not knocking your choice, but rather what i perceive to be your methods used to arrive at your conclusion.
You don't know me or my history. I decided to be a Christian many times, but kept encountering ideas that made me uncomfortable with those decisions. Eventually I had to accept that I could not remain a Christian without ignoring a substantial amount of knowledge and reason. I won't make assumptions about the methods you have used. Please don't make assumptions about mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
so for the last time, please dont confuse christianity with the bible. CHRISTianity is about the teachings of jesus, plain and simple.
Not for most Christians. I don't believe there is one true meaning to Christianity. It's just a bunch of people with a bunch of beliefs. If they want to call themselves Christians who am I to say they aren't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i dont care what other christian groups teach. if you want to debate the correctness of other christian groups, fine - we can do that. dont confuse the teachings of other groups with christianity.
I'm not going to debate the correctness of any Christians. They are all incorrect from where i sit.
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Old 01-08-2007, 08:38 PM   #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag
You sound a bit like some of the gnostics who were eradicated by the Roman church. They believed the god of the Old Testament was actually Yaltabaoth, a blind, dumb demiurge that created our flawed physical universe. Those are your interpretations, but they aren't the only possible interpretations, and they are far from popular in modern Christian beliefs.

Have you read the Nag Hammadi library?
no, i havent read any of the library. i know the gnostic beliefs surfaced with the mary magdalene movie. i dont have any belief in a yaltabaoth.

as far as being a CHRISTian, the old testament is not included. only the teachings of jesus.
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Old 01-08-2007, 09:06 PM   #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
no, i havent read any of the library. i know the gnostic beliefs surfaced with the mary magdalene movie. i dont have any belief in a yaltabaoth.

as far as being a CHRISTian, the old testament is not included. only the teachings of jesus.
Then a "CHRISTian" must be something other than a "Christian". Most Christians alive today consider the Old Testament the divinely inspired word of God.

You may want to read the Nag Hammadi Library and check out Marcion of Sinope and the Cathars while you're at it. They held beliefs similar to yours (and persecuted by the Roman church.)
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Old 01-08-2007, 09:35 PM   #668
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yes there is a God. on a side note... i am reading "superstar" billy graham's autobiography and he has very interesting thoughts on this. very enlightening. having said that, i have no doubts in my mind that God exists.
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Old 01-08-2007, 09:49 PM   #669
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a chocolate cake is a cake with chocolate icing.

now some people will require that the cake be yellow to be called a chocolate cake. and some will require the cake to be white, while others will demand it be light chocolate.

some will require it to have candles. and perhaps most of them will require it to an inside layer of frosting.

and they will all argue about what a chocolate cake is.

this does not change the fact that a chocolate cake is a cake with CHOCOLATE ICING.
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Old 01-08-2007, 09:59 PM   #670
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also it will become a custom that vanilla ice cream must be served with chocolate cake, and everyone will tell you so.

but a few people will scratch their heads and tell everyone that chocolate cake is just a cake with chocolate icing. for these people possess the true understanding of chocolate cake, and theirs is the Kingdom of Desserts.

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Old 01-08-2007, 10:07 PM   #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
a chocolate cake is a cake with chocolate icing.
Piffle. A chocolate cake is a cake that is predominately flavored with chocolate. It doesn't have to have any icing. Icing is not cake.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:46 PM   #672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag

And I have, but we aren't talking about what I know. We're talking about what Christians believe. You are free to reject the passage in the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus says Mosaic law still applies, but it's entirely reasonable to accept that passage and reject others. There's nothing objectively more "correct" about one interpretation than the other. That's the problem with using an internally inconsistent document to support morality or law.
the problem is that you have used a paragraph from the sermon, stripped away from all of the rest of the sermon, and have used it to conclude what you want to believe, in the first place. this is why it is apparent to me that you are not searching for the truth, but just to bolster your belief in atheism.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:54 PM   #673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
the problem is that you have used a paragraph from the sermon, stripped away from all of the rest of the sermon, and have used it to conclude what you want to believe, in the first place. this is why it is apparent to me that you are not searching for the truth, but just to bolster your belief in atheism.
Once again, I'm not the one stripping anything away. This is the logic that has been used by Christians to justify murder and violence. It has nothing to do with my lack of belief in religion and I haven't said anything that would suggest that.
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Old 01-10-2007, 08:46 PM   #674
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This is the logic that has been used by Christians to justify murder and violence. It has nothing to do with my lack of belief in religion and I haven't said anything that would suggest that.
can you post a url where it attributes a violent event to the sermon on the mount ?
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Old 01-11-2007, 12:38 AM   #675
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can you post a url where it attributes a violent event to the sermon on the mount ?
I don't know of one. You might be able to find one, but more likely you'll need to read a bit of history. The idea that Matthew 5:17 means Christians are subject to Mosaic law goes back at least to Augustine of Hippo. That Mosaic law was cited to justify killing heretics and infidels by a multitude of Christian authors and leaders, notable among them: St. Jerome, Pope Leo the Great and Pope Gregory IX.
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