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Old 01-15-2007, 10:39 AM   #691
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Jebus H. Abbot, mem ! How many times do I have to say this?

can you read what you wrote ? YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU said that it is entirely reasonable to accept various interpretations of the sermon.
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Old 01-15-2007, 10:45 AM   #692
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no, it is not a joke.

and see, you just did the same thing - quoted a sentence of mine, while deliberately not quoting the following sentence, because it changed the meaning.

just to remind you, what i said was this

i havent the foggiest idea of what others have said about the sermon - simply because i believe any interpretation other than my own has a personal bias based on it. in other words, the conclusion is based upon something other than just the desire to understand. i say this because i find the sermon easy to understand.

you conveniently failed to include WHY I FEEL THAT OTHER CONCLUSIONS ARE BIASED, AND WHY MINE IS NOT.

let me ask you again - do you know the difference between a conclusion based simply on the desire to conclude correctly, versus saying you have concluded something, but really just using some words to influence others to do your will ?

when i look at your responses, it seems as if you are not yet able to discern the difference between these 2 things.
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Old 01-15-2007, 10:51 AM   #693
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to put it more simply,

when i read that 2 + 2 = 4, my conclusion is not that 2 + 2 = 5. and i would feel that those making the conclusion that it is equal to 5, do so because they have some reason other than understanding to say that they have concluded this.

and the reason i say so, is that i find the statement 2 + 2 = 4 to be easy to understand, just as the sermon on the mount is easy to understand, and hard to misconclude, if one's conclusion is based solely on the desire to understand correctly.
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Old 01-15-2007, 11:04 AM   #694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
Jebus H. Abbot, mem ! How many times do I have to say this?

can you read what you wrote ? YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU said that it is entirely reasonable to accept various interpretations of the sermon.
But that doesn't mean I interpret it in some way, or even that I accept an interpretation of it.
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Old 01-15-2007, 11:11 AM   #695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
no, it is not a joke.

and see, you just did the same thing - quoted a sentence of mine, while deliberately not quoting the following sentence, because it changed the meaning.

just to remind you, what i said was this

i havent the foggiest idea of what others have said about the sermon - simply because i believe any interpretation other than my own has a personal bias based on it. in other words, the conclusion is based upon something other than just the desire to understand. i say this because i find the sermon easy to understand.

you conveniently failed to include WHY I FEEL THAT OTHER CONCLUSIONS ARE BIASED, AND WHY MINE IS NOT.
I did that because the next sentence doesn't change the meaning of the one I quoted. It doesn't matter why you think you have an unbiased interpretation of scripture. You actually think your interpretation of scripture is unbiased. That alone struck me as comical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
let me ask you again - do you know the difference between a conclusion based simply on the desire to conclude correctly, versus saying you have concluded something, but really just using some words to influence others to do your will ?

when i look at your responses, it seems as if you are not yet able to discern the difference between these 2 things.
No, I don't know the difference between those because such a difference doesn't exist. You may feel that all you want to do is form the "correct" interpretation of Jesus' words, but you can't help but desire to influence others. You opinions and experiences bias your interpretation of scripture. You can't avoid that. All interpretation is subjective because the text is internally inconsistent. There is no single objectively correct and consistent interpretation.
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Old 01-15-2007, 11:18 AM   #696
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you are using 2 sentences from the sermon to help prove your point that the teachings of jesus can be interpreted differently - just look at how OTHERS have done so.

by doing this, you are indirectly interpreting these sentences, as well.

why not just conclude the obvious - something that i have already said. these people, assuming they concluded what you said they concluded, did so for their personal gain, and not with the goal of actually trying to come up with the correct meaning of the passage ?

at this point, you have not come up with any examples depicting the teachings of jesus to be inconsistent, or hard to interpret.

again, this does not mean that you can not come up with something that i do not understand. and even if i do not completely understand it, that may be because of my lack of everything that jesus wrote, and not because it is inconsistent.
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Old 01-15-2007, 11:24 AM   #697
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boy, you are really going off the deep end, now. did you forget to take your meds this morning ?

no difference between the two ? now that just has to be one of the dumbest things i have heard in my lifetime.

OF COURSE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

one is an attempt to learn something factual. the other is a DELIBERATE ATTEMPT to influence others to do what you want them to do, for your own benefit.

not to be able to discern this difference is showing a huge lacking on your part.

i have no desire to influence others. my interpretation of the sermon has nothing to do with wanting you to do something for me.
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Old 01-15-2007, 12:21 PM   #698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
you are using 2 sentences from the sermon to help prove your point that the teachings of jesus can be interpreted differently - just look at how OTHERS have done so.
No, I'm using Christian scholar's interpretations of those 2 sentences to show that the Bible has been interpreted differently. These aren't my interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
by doing this, you are indirectly interpreting these sentences, as well.
Nope. I'm referencing the interpretations of others, not interpreting it myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
why not just conclude the obvious - something that i have already said. these people, assuming they concluded what you said they concluded, did so for their personal gain, and not with the goal of actually trying to come up with the correct meaning of the passage ?
What makes you think they were more interested in personal gain than you are? How can you know they didn't really think that when Jesus said he didn't come to abolish Mosaic law, he really meant what he said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
at this point, you have not come up with any examples depicting the teachings of jesus to be inconsistent, or hard to interpret.
No, I've shown examples of inconsistency in the Bible, the sacred document of over one billion Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
again, this does not mean that you can not come up with something that i do not understand. and even if i do not completely understand it, that may be because of my lack of everything that jesus wrote, and not because it is inconsistent.
OK.
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Old 01-15-2007, 12:29 PM   #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
boy, you are really going off the deep end, now. did you forget to take your meds this morning ?

no difference between the two ? now that just has to be one of the dumbest things i have heard in my lifetime.

OF COURSE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
Typing in capitals or calling my statement dumb aren't effective ways to back your position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
one is an attempt to learn something factual. the other is a DELIBERATE ATTEMPT to influence others to do what you want them to do, for your own benefit.
There are two problems with that statement. First, you don't know that St. Jerome and the others weren't attempting to learn the true meaning of text attributed to Jesus. You can infer that from context, but you can't know it for sure.

Second, you can't really know that you have no bias in your interpretation of scripture. You may feel that you have no bias, but then St. Jermone might have felt the same way. It's hard to imagine that you have no personal experiences or opinions that influence your interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
not to be able to discern this difference is showing a huge lacking on your part.

i have no desire to influence others. my interpretation of the sermon has nothing to do with wanting you to do something for me.
Your engagement in this discussion indicates that you desire to influence others, if only to sway them that your interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount is objectively more correct than any other.
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Old 01-15-2007, 01:24 PM   #700
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see, you did it again.

i said the following:

i have no desire to influence others. my interpretation of the sermon has nothing to do with wanting you to do something for me.

my second statement INFLUENCES my first statement. your reply was directed at my first statement only.

i dont want anything from you or anyone else. sure, we all have personal opinions that have been formed. otherwise we would be raving idiots with nothing in our brains.

let me see if i can make this easy to understand.

someone has a deliberate goal in mind. they want you to do something for them. they need to know what it takes to push your buttons. they deliberately look for some text - their only intent is to push your buttons. they have no intent to interpret it correctly, nor do they care. their only goal is to push your buttons, so that you will do something for them. i.e. like the popes wanted the crusaders to get back the lands that the muslims had taken from them. the popes simply said whatever was necessary to rile the people up to do what they would not have done, otherwise.

the other person reads the passage, and interprets it in as factual a way as he can, his experiences a part of the process.

are you beginning to see the light ? or the difference, in this case ?

btw, i dont care if someone believes my interpretation. if it helps them form an opinion for themselves, fine. if not, fine. my interpretation is not based upon the desired result of influencing someone.

that does not even mean that i am not interested in influencing someone that i am correct. perhaps i could be. perhaps i couldnt be.

the difference is that i did not form my opinion with the objective of something else in mind. i formed my opinion based simply on the desire to understand it. it is a different issue entirely whether i want to influence others on the correctness of my interpretation.
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Old 01-15-2007, 05:16 PM   #701
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OK, thanks for making it simple. Let's see if I understand your position.

You believe that every Christian scholar who interprets scripture differently from you has a hidden agenda to manipulate others, while your only agenda is to find "The Truth". Is that an accurate summation of your stance?

If so, please provide some way for an outside observer to verify this. I can't see inside the mind of St. Jerome or gymeejet. If he was still alive, he might say the same about your interpretation. In fact, he probably would. He was convinced that anyone who interpreted scripture differently from him (and the Roman church) was a heretic who ought to be punished.
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Old 01-15-2007, 09:00 PM   #702
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actually, that is a fairly correct statement. i would listen to what the scholar said - but it is my belief that most scholars have a bias to find the scripture pleasing to their way of thinking. let's face it - if one makes it his job to read the scriptures, he probably has a bias. do you really think a catholic hierarch is apt to tell us the catholic theology has any holes in it ? likewise with any of the hierarchs of other christian sects. or even atheists like you - most of you will do whatever is needed to continue to convince yourself that there is no god. i have just seen this from experience in talking to them. but not all of them. i have many agnostic acquaintances who are very willing to say that they dont know. i say the same thing. i dont know. as i said in a previous post, i can only conjure that it was not god's intention for us to know whether he exists, with absolute certainty.

i will tell you that being raised a brainwashed catholic, i had a lot of work to unbrainwash myself. i am and have been for some time - very interested in seeking the truth. i am separating those things that i know from those things that i have been taught.

and even though i lean on the side of theism, you do not see me saying that i know anything to be true. you have only started on this thread, and i am not asking you to read the whole thread - but if you did, i think you would begin to suspect that i do not have a bias - again something that would keep me from having an unprejudiced opinion.

which brings up another point i would like to make about the word bias.

you are using it too generally. with your use, everyone has a bias. if that is true, there is no need for the word in the first place. it only has benefit when it can do some sort of separation.

from dictionary.com, here is the second variation, which i think is better suited for our discussion.

a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.

this is what i am referring to when i talk about bias - something that prevents an unprejudiced conclusion.

you are right - you can not see into my mind. so i cant ask you to trust me. that is your choice. and you can decide to make it AFTER you hear my interpretation. i likewise, can not see into your mind - so i wont know for sure whether your reply to my interpretation has bias in it or not. BUT - if we are honest with ourselves, we can get a good feel for the other person, by simply listening to their response. if i were a betting man, i am telling you right now - i think you will admit to me that my interpretation does not have bias in it. and i say that because for some reason i trust you to be honest with me, in that regard - even if you really dont want to be.

i guess i see one of god's little angels having some effect on you, even if you choose not to believe. LOL.
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Old 01-15-2007, 10:24 PM   #703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
from dictionary.com, here is the second variation, which i think is better suited for our discussion.

a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.

this is what i am referring to when i talk about bias - something that prevents an unprejudiced conclusion.
I can work with that definition. I believe everyone who tries to obey the instructions in the Bible has to apply prejudice to some degree. It's impossible to obey all of the instructions, so some will have to be filtered out. The text itself can't be used to determine which should be filtered, so some external information has to be introduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
if i were a betting man, i am telling you right now - i think you will admit to me that my interpretation does not have bias in it.
I don't think it's possible to form an unbiased interpretation of the Bible (or even the Sermon on the Mount). I'll be pleasantly surprised if you have, though.
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:37 PM   #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
when i read that 2 + 2 = 4, my conclusion is not that 2 + 2 = 5.
But God can make 2 + 2 = fish!
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Old 01-16-2007, 08:03 PM   #705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
to put it more simply,

when i read that 2 + 2 = 4, my conclusion is not that 2 + 2 = 5. and i would feel that those making the conclusion that it is equal to 5, do so because they have some reason other than understanding to say that they have concluded this.

and the reason i say so, is that i find the statement 2 + 2 = 4 to be easy to understand, just as the sermon on the mount is easy to understand, and hard to misconclude, if one's conclusion is based solely on the desire to understand correctly.
OK, if the Sermon on the Mount is that clear and consistent to you, what does Jesus mean by these words (let's go with the Amplified Bible here, I like its inclusion of the "hook" idiom):
Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.

For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.
If you've come up with a mechanism for parsing natural language as reliably as arithmetic expressions, I and thousands of logicians, linguists and mathematicians will be deeply in your debt.
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