Digital Radio Central - Sponsored by TSS Radio
  DRC Home Page DRC Forums Contact Us  
 
SIRIUS Backstage Forum
 
 
 
  Sirius Satellite Radio XM Satellite Radio iTunes/iPod Slacker Pandora  
 
 
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  
Go Back   SIRIUS Backstage Forum > >
Visit Digital Radio Central

Notices

The Doghouse Here is where people are talking everything not SIRIUS related. So be cool, be smart and have something to say!

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 01:04 AM   #721
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

"Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward. But when thou doest alms let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth, that thine alms may be in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

same as the previous post - do not toot your own horn.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 01:06 AM   #722
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions as the heathen do; for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. But not ye therefore like unto them; for your Father knowest what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."

similar again, but with prayer. basically, jesus is telling us to be pious. do a good work for the case of the good work, not so that others can pat you on the back, and tell you what fine person you are.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 01:07 AM   #723
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

the our father - pretty self-explanatory.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 01:08 AM   #724
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

"Moreover when ye fast be not as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance for they disfigure their faces that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head and was thy face, that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly."

fasting - same thing again - dont let everyone know, so they can all tell you how sorry they are, and what a great person you must be.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 01:09 AM   #725
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal, but lay up for yourself treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

similar to our old saying of "you cant take it with ya". concern yourself with your afterlife - this life is just a passing moment, in comparison.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 01:15 AM   #726
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

okay, i am a bit tired of posting at the moment. there is still quite a bit left of the sermon, including the well-known golden rule.

but after the intro was given, jesus talked about quite a few things, in specific. nowhere in those specifics did jesus talk about killing heretics. and the reason he did not, is because he did not want us to do that, in the first place.

when one reads thru the whole sermon, you just cant make a valid conclusion that jesus was here to enforce old jewish laws, or that he wanted us to kill heretics, etc.

this sermon is one of the mainstays of christianity and the teachings of jesus.

okay mem, go ahead and make your comments. i dont think i will finish the rest of the sermon, unless you have specific questions about it.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 01:50 AM   #727
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
when one reads thru the whole sermon, you just cant make a valid conclusion that jesus was here to enforce old jewish laws, or that he wanted us to kill heretics, etc.
Then why did he go out of his way to say Mosaic Law would remain until the sky and earth pass away? If he wanted to say that the Law no longer applied (and heretics shouldn't be killed, which was mandatory under Mosaic Law), wouldn't he have said something like "This is the new law" or "The old law no longer applies"?

Here's the next verse (again, from the Amplified Bible) and he's still emphasizing the value of the Law:
Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
How can he make it any more obvious? He's telling his audience to practice and teach Mosaic Law. If you are a follower of Jesus and his teachings, why aren't you in that audience?

In your gloss, you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
since we know the history of the ot, and we know that jesus just gave us the beatitudes, we know that jesus is not here to enforce the old laws, or keep the status quo.
One can interpret the beatitudes in such a way that they seem to contradict Mosaic Law, but Jesus goes out of his way to discourage that interpretation.

How do you justify choosing an interpretation specifically excluded by Jesus?

And how can you expect anyone to believe this is as obvious as 2+2=4?
memebag is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 02:25 AM   #728
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

gosh mem,

i dont know how i can make it any simpler. you are hung up on one verse. i have told you what was meant by it.

every part of the sermon before the phrase, and every part of the sermon after the phrase, say just the opposite of the mosaic law, for the most part.

this is why i told you that i dont believe you are approaching this or christianity without prejudice.

the literal interpretation of that phrase contradicts everything else in the sermon. so you have chosen to believe the literal truth of that phrase, and then basically must also then conclude that the entire rest of the sermon was incorrect.

that is why i am telling you that anyone who interprets the sermon the way that you have done, or st. jerome, etc - has a reason other than simply just searching for the truth.

once one understands the jewish mindset - yes it is very easy to come to a correct conclusion about the sermon. it just isnt hard to understand.

you want to dwell on a very general and short statement - everything about the mosaic law is true. and then sweep aside the whole rest of the VERY LONG SERMON, and VERY SPECIFIC STATEMENTS. in anyone's book, this would constitute something very wrong with your thinking.

you cant have both. if the one small phrase is correct, then the whole entire rest of the sermon is not correct.

just take that phrase for what it is - an intro to all the various SPECIFIC groundrules that jesus did lay out.

i simply dont know how that can be any easier to decipher. pretty close to 2 + 2 = 4.

using that phrase, when it is included in this gigantic sermon - and then trying to say that it justifies killing heretics is just really silly.

you have given me your religious history, and i have given you mine. i have told you that i was a brainwashed catholic. i think you have a very negative mindset of your own with regards to christianity, which does not allow you to approach things without prejudice.

i took another route. i want to know the truth. i dont accept anything just because it was taught to me. i read, and make my own conclusions, without prejudice. i do not try to make things look better for christianity or worse for christianity, based upon my desires. i simply try to understand the truth about it.

by doing that, i have rejected the old testament as any sort of book from god. i can see that it is simply a jewish history book. jesus tells the jews in this sermon, how wrong they are about god, as his rules and guidelines are very different from the old testament.

i believe at this point in time, you can not really be objective. i understand and accept that. all of us must be ready to accept something, before we will give it a fair shot. i just dont see you as being ready to give it a fair shot. you have made up your mind at the moment that christianity is bad, cite examples of how many people have misused it, etc.

at this point, i just dont see us having any sort of factual exchanges, because i dont believe you are really interested in that. your unwillingness to change your mind about this phrase seems almost unbelievable.

i have already shown you that the teachings of jesus are not to be taken literally at all times.

this one phrase that has you hung up, is just that - a very short phrase within a very long passage. had the rest of the passage backed up the phrase, then i would agree with you. however, it does just the opposite.

i'm off to bed.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 02:57 AM   #729
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
gosh mem,

i dont know how i can make it any simpler. you are hung up on one verse. i have told you what was meant by it.
You told me what you think it means. You haven't given me a reason to believe that's what it really means. What you think it means seems to be the opposite of what it says, so you need to provide a really good reason for me to accept your belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
every part of the sermon before the phrase, and every part of the sermon after the phrase, say just the opposite of the mosaic law, for the most part.

this is why i told you that i dont believe you are approaching this or christianity without prejudice.

the literal interpretation of that phrase contradicts everything else in the sermon. so you have chosen to believe the literal truth of that phrase, and then basically must also then conclude that the entire rest of the sermon was incorrect.
No, I could instead conclude that your interpretation of the rest of the sermon is incorrect and that a correct interpretation could be reconciled with a literal interpretation of verses 17-20. Let's call that "St. Meme's Interpretation".

This is what is meant by "internally inconsistent". It is impossible for all of it to be literally true.

There is nothing in the text that indicates which interpretation (yours or St. Meme's) is to be preferred. Either is possible. Both require some outside influence or "prejudice".

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
that is why i am telling you that anyone who interprets the sermon the way that you have done, or st. jerome, etc - has a reason other than simply just searching for the truth.
The same could be said of you. There is nothing more objectively true about your interpretation than St. Meme's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
once one understands the jewish mindset - yes it is very easy to come to a correct conclusion about the sermon. it just isnt hard to understand.
You can't support that claim. The Jewish mindset was that Mosaic law was sacred and absolute. To say that a Jew hearing that sermon would interpret it as advocating the end of the Law is laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
you want to dwell on a very general and short statement - everything about the mosaic law is true. and then sweep aside the whole rest of the VERY LONG SERMON, and VERY SPECIFIC STATEMENTS. in anyone's book, this would constitute something very wrong with your thinking.
And you want to say that when Jesus said Mosaic Law was to be honored that he meant the opposite. That indicates prejudice in your thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
you cant have both. if the one small phrase is correct, then the whole entire rest of the sermon is not correct.
By your interpretation of the rest of the sermon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
just take that phrase for what it is - an intro to all the various SPECIFIC groundrules that jesus did lay out.
That's what you say it is, but it seems to be much more to St. Meme. He sees it as Jesus saying he hasn't come to abolish the Law, which most people would agree is what he is attributed as having said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
you have given me your religious history, and i have given you mine. i have told you that i was a brainwashed catholic. i think you have a very negative mindset of your own with regards to christianity, which does not allow you to approach things without prejudice.
St. Meme's interpretation is no more prejudiced than yours. Both of you have to shade the meaning of the words to make it fit. You break a small section why St. Meme gently bends larger sections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i took another route. i want to know the truth. i dont accept anything just because it was taught to me. i read, and make my own conclusions, without prejudice. i do not try to make things look better for christianity or worse for christianity, based upon my desires. i simply try to understand the truth about it.
St. Meme wants to know the truth, too. He accepts Jesus at his word and tries to believe he meant what he said and not the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
by doing that, i have rejected the old testament as any sort of book from god. i can see that it is simply a jewish history book. jesus tells the jews in this sermon, how wrong they are about god, as his rules and guidelines are very different from the old testament.
Except that he tells them that by telling them how right the Old Testament is and that even the least of its commandments should still be obeyed. Even you must admit that's an odd way to tell people they are wrong about God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i believe at this point in time, you can not really be objective. i understand and accept that. all of us must be ready to accept something, before we will give it a fair shot. i just dont see you as being ready to give it a fair shot. you have made up your mind at the moment that christianity is bad, cite examples of how many people have misused it, etc.
I am able to see how different people can reach different conclusions about this text. That's more objective than you, who see one and only one correct interpretation which happens to be yours and requires you to ignore words attributed to Jesus himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
at this point, i just dont see us having any sort of factual exchanges, because i dont believe you are really interested in that. your unwillingness to change your mind about this phrase seems almost unbelievable.
Grrrr. You're doing it again. St. Meme is the one who thinks that phrase means Mosaic Law still applies, not me. I think the meaning of the phrase is inconsequential. I don't care what it means. I can see it meaning just about anything. You are unwilling to change your mind. You are unwilling to see that any opinion other than your own may be logically valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i have already shown you that the teachings of jesus are not to be taken literally at all times.
No, you've cited parables which are clearly parables. Matthew 5:17-20 is not a parable, it's an explanation and an instruction. Just because Jesus used parables to convey meaning doesn't mean his instructions should be ignored when inconvenient.

And that's really what happened in the history of Christianity. Jesus' teachings were for a Jewish audience. He expected his followers to remain good Jews. It was only after his death that others re-interpreted his teachings to appeal to a broader audience. Circumcision and kosher diets were just too inconvenient for Greeks and Romans, so they decided Jesus must not have meant what he said in all instances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
this one phrase that has you hung up, is just that - a very short phrase within a very long passage. had the rest of the passage backed up the phrase, then i would agree with you. however, it does just the opposite.
Then why is it there? Why would Jesus bother to introduce this one phrase that tells his listeners not to interpret the rest of the sermon the way you have interpreted it?
memebag is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 03:40 PM   #730
RoadClosed
Sirius Star
 
RoadClosed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Estimating the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow
Posts: 5,758
RoadClosed will become famous soon enoughRoadClosed will become famous soon enough
Default

You are both wrong anyway. Moses and Jesus are not the true word of god. Mohammed's words and actions are the clean and pure true words.
__________________
West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.


God does not believe in Athiests. Therefore they do not exist.
RoadClosed is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 03:46 PM   #731
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

gently bends ? that is a laugh. you have to break it in half.

mem,

i have nothing more to say to you regarding the sermon. the st meme interpretation of the entire sermon would be so far off that it would be laughable, in order to have it make sense with your literal interpretation of the small intro.

i gave you a REASONABLE explanation for the phrase, tying it into the entire sermon, as well as the jewish mindset of the time.

if you have another interpretation that can do the same, then i will be happy to discuss that with you. i have no doubts that you could look up the net, and have a dozen different interpretations by various religious scholars.

if you continue to follow your own route, and then conclude that jesus was advocating killing of heretics, then dont bother posting to me in that particular regard. i wont make any more responses along that line.

any one who can read the entire sermon, and then still conclude that jesus is advocating killing of heretics and all that other nonsense, is NOT USING RATIONAL THOUGHT PROCESSES.

i only care to debate with rational thought processes.

if i read a statement, and then read 100 following statements - and my conclusion about the statement invalidates all 100 of the following statements (that all seem to fit nicely together) - a rational thought process dictates to me that i must conclude that my interpretation of the statement is incorrect. and i then either need to try to re-interpret it, or simply say that i dont understand. but i would not continue to accept my original interpretation, because it would be obvious to me that I WAS INCORRECT. it does not look like you are able to use these rational thought processes in regards to christianity. if we were talking about any other non-emotional subject, you would be agreeing with me.

again, ask yourself why you have such a great need to continue with your atheism. only you can answer that question, and only when the time comes that you are willing to do so. i wish you good luck with that process. i have no problem with a conclusion of the likeliness of god being small. as i said earlier, it is not rational to be either 100% theistic or 100% atheistic - since there is no proof and never will be, of the real truth. so a rational thought process must leave room for some doubt.

since i admit that i dont know for certainty, that means i have doubts. i lean on the side of theism. and i have no problem with people leaning on the side of atheism. i perfectly understand why they do so. but in many cases, such as yours, it goes beyond rational reasoning. they look for ways to convince themselves that it is true, rather than searching for the truth. theists do this as much as atheists, so i am not knocking one more than the other.

your prejudice comes over so strong that i suspect the remainder of the readers on this thread would tell you the same thing (except those of course who are rationalizing the same way that you are doing).
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 03:50 PM   #732
unoriginal
Loyal Listener
 
unoriginal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 09, 2006
Posts: 218
unoriginal is on a distinguished road
Default

Huh? What is this that has suddenly appeared on my desk?

A can of worms. And it appears to have been opened.

Who opened this can of worms in here?
unoriginal is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 03:58 PM   #733
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i have nothing more to say to you regarding the sermon. the st meme interpretation of the entire sermon would be so far off that it would be laughable, in order to have it make sense with your literal interpretation of the small intro.
Not to its original audience. They couldn't reject Mosaic Law as easily as you seem to think they could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i gave you a REASONABLE explanation for the phrase, tying it into the entire sermon, as well as the jewish mindset of the time.
No, you gave me an explanation that you find reasonable based on your personal opinions. I gave you an explanation St. Meme thinks is reasonable. I can see how both of you come to your conclusions. I can see nothing in the text to favor one or the other.

Do you know what "internally inconsistent" means?

And can you tell me why Jesus would say Matthew 5:17-20 if he meant the opposite? Was it just to mess with our minds?
memebag is offline  
 
 
Old 01-17-2007, 06:11 PM   #734
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

hi mem,

i have rested my case. for those who are interested, they can form their own opinions based on both of our posts.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 01-18-2007, 12:43 AM   #735
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unoriginal
Huh? What is this that has suddenly appeared on my desk?

A can of worms. And it appears to have been opened.

Who opened this can of worms in here?
gymeejet invited me in from the Political Asylum forum to continue a discussion we were having over there. I'm not sure why.
memebag is offline  
 
 
 

Go Back   SIRIUS Backstage Forum > >


Digitalradiocentral.com




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:05 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.39 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
All Content Copyright SIRIUS Backstage. All Rights Reserved. SIRIUS and registered trademarks are the property of SIRIUS Satellite Radio, Inc. The opinions posted on SIRIUS Backstage website and forums are those of the individual posters and/or this website and are not necessarily the opinions or positions of SIRIUS Satellite Radio, Inc.