Digital Radio Central - Sponsored by TSS Radio
  DRC Home Page DRC Forums Contact Us  
 
SIRIUS Backstage Forum
 
 
 
  Sirius Satellite Radio XM Satellite Radio iTunes/iPod Slacker Pandora  
 
 
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  
Go Back   SIRIUS Backstage Forum > >
Visit Digital Radio Central

Notices

The Doghouse Here is where people are talking everything not SIRIUS related. So be cool, be smart and have something to say!

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
 
Old 09-29-2005, 10:06 PM   #61
4BAMA
Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 514
4BAMA is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleBoomsky
I formally go one record as saying the prior two replies are too intelligent for me to have any idea where we are in this argument...oh well DUNCE hat time for me.

UB
throw me a dunce hat as well. way over my head. science is not my strong suit. i was to busy skipping classes at Alabama and partying(football games and seeing cool bands) and missing science classes. i still do my fair share of partying.

what i know a little bit about is faith and god. its way hard to understand why things happen and there is struggles with faith and why things happen. just like myself, my girlfriend has cancer and i don't understand why this is happening. she just had surgery about a month ago. the kicker is she lives in biloxi and guess what happen to her 2 days later. Hurricane Katrina. house and things gone. she didn't need this extra burden but it is god's will because we all have our crosses to bear in this world and some our heavier than others.

i'm not posting to try and tell anyone what they should or should not believe. just my 2 cents.everyone has free will to choose what they want to believe.


Among the creatures of God, the most perfect are Angels and men. The Angels are pure spirits created to adore God and execute his commands.

Many of these Angels revolted against their creator, who, in turn, condemned them to hell. These angels whom we call demon or evil spirits hate God and temp man on earth to defy the laws of God so as to be condemned to the same tortures that they thimself suffer.
4BAMA is offline  
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 04:05 AM   #62
PowercatRich
Mixologist
 
Join Date: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 394
PowercatRich is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to PowercatRich
Default

4Bama: It's interesting that you've obviously put a lot of effort into understanding your religion and hardly any into understanding science and the nature of the universe. Not saying that you're dumb of course--especially considering the depth of the arguments above which are pretty far above my head too. I'm just repeating back what you've said in the post--so please don't take offense.

But your admission makes an excellent point. People are FAR more interested in believing what they want to believe than doing the work to find out the evidence that exists. In my experience, religious "truth" is spoon-fed to people through dozens of societal avenues starting with your parents, church, and peers. Religion isn't so prevalent because it's necessarily true. It's because it gives people so many things that they desire--security, social interaction, and for the curious people out there it provides absolut answers to questions that would only otherwise be answered through nebulous philosophy. Religion also does an excellent job of dividing people and creating groups so that --ironically--people can behave as animals do in packs. See the current global political situation for evidence of pack mentality. We're born to create us vs. them divisions naturally, and religion just happens to be a popular one, but certainly not the only way to divide people up. But make no mistake--that is religions main societal function--not to appease some God which we have no evidence of.

So the point of my rant is that people tend to agree so often about the nature of God because they have a societal system that plays to their very psychological makeup. All of the evidence of God goes back to the human psyche. I suppose one could argue that God created our brains that way so we would be inclined to believe in Him, but that's another chicken-egg argument.

Personally, I'm agnostic. I think there could be a force in the universe that has some nebulous control on the nature of things, but the belief in an omnipotent God that has created all of these ruses for mankind seems ridiculous to me. My belief is that no religion or human can explain the nature of God because it is too complicated of a subject for our minds at this point in our evolution. Maybe when we start to integrate our brains with computers we'll figure it out, but as for now most religious explanations for God may as well be stories about the boogeyman. The Roman Gods are just as valid as christianity at explaining the nature of the universe.
PowercatRich is offline  
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 06:12 AM   #63
UncleBoomsky
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: Dec 11, 2003
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 1,819
UncleBoomsky is on a distinguished road
Default

I think the above post is well states my feelings better than I could myself--except I would prefer the word "ridiculous" be a little softer. Thank you for an excellent post.

UB
UncleBoomsky is offline  
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 10:37 AM   #64
RoadClosed
Sirius Star
 
RoadClosed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Estimating the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow
Posts: 5,758
RoadClosed will become famous soon enoughRoadClosed will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
well then, build me a time-box 2 feet long, 3 feet wide, 1 foot high, and 2 minutes time.

i would sure like to know what that looks like. !!!
OK OK you said "physical" object. But that's not going to happen just like we can't build a physical and tangible box of space. We could build the box fill it with space but that doesn't prove it's there. Say we are in a football stadium and we notice a beer cart about 500 meters away. We can only percieve space by noticing the fact that an object lies beyond it as compared to our current location in Section 20 Row 15. And when we walk to that object we percieve time flow because there is no instananious ability to reach the beer tap without consious delay. Nor does time stop if we notice another beer stand and consider the option of ale versus lager. Time flows in a direction and we are not at rest in reality.

If you were to zoom out to the goodyear blimp hovering above and look at the beer contemplater over the course of the game you will notice the entire stadium shift significantly. As one sets there in Row 15 deciding on frosty beverage he is moving through space at the rate of over 3000 MPH as the earth rotates. In addition the earth is moving along it's path around the sun. That's alot of movement through space as time passes on it's arrow.

But let's not stop there. The sun, the earth and all the planets are moving along a single spiral of millions of stars. Which spirals around our galactic core. Us peeps located in this spiral arm are moving along space as our own galaxy )one in a million billion) rotates at a rate of just a single spin every 200 million years or so. And it goes on from there as we go to the local group of galaxies (ours, Andromeda and about 20 others) that are moving toward the center of our local group at 144,000 kilometers per hour - had to look that one up.

The local group of 22ish galaxies are part of a bigger group called the local supercluster. Note we still use the word "local". These mass of galaxies, including ours, moves toward what is called the "great attactor" at an astounding 2.2 Million kilometers per hour. The great attractor is there because unlike the local group that moves toward it's center, the local supercluster does not. It moves to something completely unkown. And not observable. Twilight ZOne.
----
Why did I go through all that trouble. To show the tangible relationship to time and space. As the man set there deciding what to drink, he moves great distances of space with each passing millionth of a second. And the perception of his location changed as gravitational influences effected the light particles depending on the obsevation point. The blimp, the sun, the spiral arm, the galactic core or even the Andromeda galaxy.

If we were standing there watching him from Row 20 and decided to go back through time and assist, we would not only have to go back through times arrow we would have to locate his position in space. His EXACT position or we would end up a few million kilometers off the mark, perhaps on the forzen wasteland of Europa? So time and space are related and it's modern scientists like the bad ass Stephen Hawking that have shaped our shifted perceptions.
__________________
West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.


God does not believe in Athiests. Therefore they do not exist.
RoadClosed is offline  
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 10:45 AM   #65
Amnesia
Sirius Star
 
Amnesia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 03, 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,035
Amnesia is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
Quote:
but i dont think any of us can conjure up a real physical entity of 4 dimensions.
We do it every second of every day.
The concept of time as a "dimension" like length, breadth or width is merely a philosophical construct---there's no real basis for it.

It's certainly possible that there are one or more additional physical dimensions that we are unable to perceive. As in the book Flatland, lower-dimensional beings wouldn't be able to view movement in those higher dimensions...
__________________
Amnesia is offline  
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 10:53 AM   #66
RoadClosed
Sirius Star
 
RoadClosed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Estimating the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow
Posts: 5,758
RoadClosed will become famous soon enoughRoadClosed will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
The concept of time as a "dimension" like length, breadth or width is merely a philosophical construct---there's no real basis for it.
There is a basis for observation. This is an interesting memory I just had. I was at a lecture once in Cabridge UK. The speaker was talking about extra dimensional contructs. If we could see them like a traditional 3d object the discussion is pointless. But we know it's there, we know we move forward through time because we have never witnessed the oposite. I posted some info above.

But we know it's there and during this lecture the speaker presented what some extrademinsional shadows would look like as percived through our own dimensional perceptive cababilities. I would have to try and locate that lecture although the model was just a brief section.

But even witnessing extradimensional shadows doesn't do much for me since I lack the greater complexity of math to "fully" understand what I am looking at.


//EDIT Geometrical Hypercube is what it was called. It's a 3 demensional shadow of a 4th dimensional object that has never been observed I think it's called a Tesseract?
__________________
West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.


God does not believe in Athiests. Therefore they do not exist.
RoadClosed is offline  
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 11:40 AM   #67
Amnesia
Sirius Star
 
Amnesia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 03, 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,035
Amnesia is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
There is a basis for observation. But we know it's there, we know we move forward through time because we have never witnessed the oposite.
Just because we experience time doesn't make it a dimension like length. The phrase "moving forward in time" is just an expression. We also talk about "moving forward in a relationship". Does that make relationships a dimension, too?

Yes, we experience time. No, it's not a dimension.

Oh, and yes: a tesseract is a four-dimensional hypercube. A tesseract is to a cube as a cube is to a square.
__________________
Amnesia is offline  
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 03:23 PM   #68
RoadClosed
Sirius Star
 
RoadClosed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Estimating the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow
Posts: 5,758
RoadClosed will become famous soon enoughRoadClosed will become famous soon enough
Default

I suck at math.

Time may not be a 4th dimension but it is some dimension as percieved. In fact you can plot time in electronic applications. Without it there could be no digital communications where a specific bit or lumb of data only exists for a millionth of a second in a predetermined space of time. The marriage analogy is apples and oranges. But moving forward in time is measurable although based on perception. I don't argue we live in anything other than a relativistic universe. That is time and space are measured by our relative velocity and location to other objects with their own velocity and location. And given the fact that we have never witnessed a ship unsinking or a satelite suddenly jumping back into a rocket from which it was launched that it does move forward. Or in one direction, if one doesn't like the anology of "forward".

We don't always experience time. But it still moves.
__________________
West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.


God does not believe in Athiests. Therefore they do not exist.
RoadClosed is offline  
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 05:04 PM   #69
Amnesia
Sirius Star
 
Amnesia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 03, 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,035
Amnesia is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed
It still moves.
Fine. It moves. Does "length" move? No.

I just don't see what time has to do with length, breadth, width.
__________________
Amnesia is offline  
 
 
Old 09-30-2005, 06:50 PM   #70
UncleBoomsky
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: Dec 11, 2003
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 1,819
UncleBoomsky is on a distinguished road
Default

I wish I were four dimensional. I am a three dimensional creature and can write inside of a two dimensional drawing without breaking the exterior lines. If I were four dimensional surgeon, I remove bad organ without breaking the skin.

UB
UncleBoomsky is offline  
 
 
Old 10-01-2005, 03:22 AM   #71
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4BAMA
just like myself, my girlfriend has cancer and i don't understand why this is happening.
i hope you are able to deal with this, and wish you all the success in getting better. i read this to say that BOTH of you have cancer. is that true ?
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 10-01-2005, 03:39 AM   #72
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

hi pc,

first, i am a believer. secondly, i agree with almost all of your post. does that surprise you ?

but i will make a few comments.

dont mistake religion for spirituality.

christianity is not about "appeasing" some god.

i dont quite understand your comment about "ruses".

christianity makes no attempts at explaining the nature of the universe. this is what our science attempts to do. christianity simply tells us that god created the universe.

also, i would not say that christianity attempts to explain the "nature" of god - in fact, almost just the opposite - that we can not hope to understand the true nature of god. this is not the task of a christian. we have been placed on this earth for a purpose. part of our struggle is to attempt to find this purpose by becoming better acquainted with god. we can read the new testament to get some help.

but (and this is where i am really different from mainstream christianity) i believe the main way we can do so is simply following our conscience - for if we truly do have a relationship with god, this is where the conversation takes place.

and the more we follow christ's laws, the more apt we are to be placing ourselves in a state where we can become more christ-like. every time we help someone else, we are helping one of god's children - which i believe is pretty high up on the list of what jesus expects of us, with what he has given us.

i also do not believe that a person must believe in god, in order to be saved. that judgment is between each individual and god. but i "suspect" that our actions will be more important to god than our words, when he judges us.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 10-01-2005, 10:46 AM   #73
4BAMA
Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 514
4BAMA is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4BAMA
just like myself, my girlfriend has cancer and i don't understand why this is happening.
i hope you are able to deal with this, and wish you all the success in getting better. i read this to say that BOTH of you have cancer. is that true ?

my bad. bad choice of words. only my girlfriend has cancer. but of course her having cancer and us being able to hardly communicate because of hurricane katrina makes it tough on me as well
4BAMA is offline  
 
 
Old 10-02-2005, 02:59 AM   #74
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

hi rc,

i have no doubts that space, matter and time are intricately entertwined and related in our universe.

we can make a 2-dimensional drawing of the shadow that a cube makes, and show it to the flatlanders. it wont help the flatlanders imagine what a cube is, though. and never will. their bodies and everything in their universe is in 2 dimensions, and always will be.

none of us, including someone 10 times as smart as einstein, has any capacity to visualize a 4-dimensional object. we are stuck in our 3 spatial dimensions, just as the flatlanders are stuck in their 2 dimensions.

in string theory, there are supposedly 11 or so dimensions. mathematicians have that many variables to show for it. if we cant imagine a 4-dimensional object, i would like to see us struggle with visualizing an 11-dimensional object ?

the fact that we can have mathematical constructs, drawings of shadows, etc. does not equate to an actual physical object.

einstein does talk about time as being an actual dimension. spacetime, to him, is a real 4-dimensional thing. without matter, he describes it as "flat", in the sense that there are no bumps, valleys, etc. general relativity says that matter warps spacetime. and i did say warp. this infers that spacetime is an actual physical dimension. and matter simply flows in these warps, in much the same way that a roulette ball travels, seeking out the path of least resistance in the curves that it rolls around in.

that is why i say i dont know if i buy it or not. if gr is right, and spacetime is truly a 4-dimensional thing, all i can say is that it is not something that we can ever see in this universe.

just like newton before him, i suspect that eventually we wil find that gr is not correct in much of what it says. it will serve as a stepping stone, as we gradually learn more about our universe. in 200 years, we are apt to have outgrown todays models, just as we have outgrown most of the models of 200 years in the past.

i think it was galileo who, when asked about his genius, replied that he was just standing on the shoulders of all the scientists who came before him.

i think it is great that you are so excited about physics. it shows that you have a great curiosity. my only caution to you - is dont be so fast at agreeing with everything the scientists say. most of it will be incomplete, if not incorrect.

as i mentioned earlier about "string theory". it speculates that these strings vibrate in various ways, creating all the particles, such as electrons, protons, quarks, etc. but it begs the question of "what makes up the strings ?". no matter how you dice it, a "string" is made up of a very large number of points or dots.

also, "string theory" is completely unprovable. we have no way of making any tests on even one aspect of it. at this point, it is only a philosophy.

first we thought that the atom was the smallest thing around. in fact, if i recall, the word "atomic" means indivisible, or something similar. then we found electrons buzzing around. but the nucleus was solid. then lo and behold, we find that the nucleus was basically emptiness, with a few parts of something extremely dense, which we called protons and neutrons. but then we find that the protons and neutrons are comprised of quarks.

string theorists say that these quarks and all other particles are actually made up from vibrating strings, which of course needs to be made of something, and on and on in infinitum.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 10-03-2005, 10:37 AM   #75
RoadClosed
Sirius Star
 
RoadClosed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Estimating the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow
Posts: 5,758
RoadClosed will become famous soon enoughRoadClosed will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
we can make a 2-dimensional drawing of the shadow that a cube makes, and show it to the flatlanders. it wont help the flatlanders imagine what a cube is, though. and never will. their bodies and everything in their universe is in 2 dimensions, and always will be.
Excellent, you've been reading notes or outtakes somewhere of my other hero besides Hawking.... the most excellent Carl Sagan (rip). But we are three dimensional creatures capable of "imagining" entire science disciplines we cannot prove, see or construct in our "tangible" universe. Quantum Mechanics has been around for nearly 100 years in and was only in the 80s we conducted experiments that shed light and a real physical entity. Another example is atomic theory.

We humans can create models of intangible theory that show how they interact in our tangible world. But alas limited to our ability to perceive or directly observe only our own universe. We cannot touch time, only understand what it is and observe it's effect on objects withing our perception. But we understand it's there and it's effects on our reality.

I take the similar view of other scientists. Time has dimension. Never argued it was a physical one only that we physically see it's results. You cannot measure something that has no dimension. By that I mean physical component we observe and understand. In fact you could graph it in 3 dimensions quite easily and understand the line representing time does represent a 4th measurable object were the critical component is not frequency or amplitude it is time. (using my data example). I believe Einstein could visualize time as 4th dimension in 3 dimensional terms.

Quote:
just like newton before him, i suspect that eventually we will find that gr is not correct in much of what it says.
That is given. Based on all scientific knowledge ever handed down. But I would wager in this case we will prove deficiencies through a greater understanding of time and it's relationship to gravity and space. In fact modern scientists (Hawking: brief history in time) actually expand on the idea versus eliminating it's association). Einstein was working on another theory when he died. He was laboring to further generalize the underlying mechanism of the cosmos.

/EDIT wow I just used google tool bar's spell checker for the first time. Excellent bit of software.
__________________
West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.


God does not believe in Athiests. Therefore they do not exist.
RoadClosed is offline  
 
 
 

Go Back   SIRIUS Backstage Forum > >


Digitalradiocentral.com




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:25 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.39 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
All Content Copyright SIRIUS Backstage. All Rights Reserved. SIRIUS and registered trademarks are the property of SIRIUS Satellite Radio, Inc. The opinions posted on SIRIUS Backstage website and forums are those of the individual posters and/or this website and are not necessarily the opinions or positions of SIRIUS Satellite Radio, Inc.