Digital Radio Central - Sponsored by TSS Radio
  DRC Home Page DRC Forums Contact Us  
 
SIRIUS Backstage Forum
 
 
 
  Sirius Satellite Radio XM Satellite Radio iTunes/iPod Slacker Pandora  
 
 
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  
Go Back   SIRIUS Backstage Forum > >
Visit Digital Radio Central

Notices

The Doghouse Here is where people are talking everything not SIRIUS related. So be cool, be smart and have something to say!

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
 
Old 05-30-2007, 10:46 AM   #916
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergz99 View Post
They also know when to let something go ....... let it go.
once again, just dont post. this thread has had lots of interesting discussions. you are ASSuming that we are desperately arguing, unable to let something go. it is apparent that you dont know much about our discussions.

i think the word association game is silly. have you seen me go over to that thread and tell them that they are wasting their time posting to a thread that is silly ? NO, you havent.

i allow others to choose how to spend their time, and dont bother them. please have the courtesy to do the same.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 05-30-2007, 10:52 AM   #917
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadClosed View Post
As is Allah, the arabic name. Even arabic Christians and Jews use the term for this vision of "one" god.
but islam came after christianity. i think that abraham is credited with starting the first monotheistic belief system of which we know about. that doesnt mean that we couldnt discover at some point in time, documents about some group (before abraham) that believed in one god.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 05-30-2007, 12:25 PM   #918
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
but islam came after christianity. i think that abraham is credited with starting the first monotheistic belief system of which we know about. that doesnt mean that we couldnt discover at some point in time, documents about some group (before abraham) that believed in one god.
If Abraham and Judaism were monotheistic, why is "Elohim" plural?

And why do so many scholars date the development of Jewish monotheism to 1500 to 1200 B.C.?
__________________
"Drink deep or taste not the plasma spring!" - Seth Brundle
memebag is offline  
 
 
Old 05-30-2007, 08:46 PM   #919
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

you arent seriously arguing that judaism was not a monotheistic religion, are you ? if so, i wont debate such silliness with you.

in regards to elohim, i had never heard of it before. according to the wiki and hebrew grammar, perhaps this may help.

Hebrew grammar

Elohim has plural morphological form in Hebrew, but it is used with singular verbs and adjectives in the Hebrew text when the particular meaning of the God of Israel (a singular deity) is traditionally understood. Thus the very first words of the Bible are breshit bara Elohim, where bara ברא is a verb inflected as third person singular masculine perfect. If Elohim were an ordinary plural word, then the plural verb form bar'u בראו would have been used in this sentence instead. Such plural grammatical forms are in fact found in cases where Elohim has semantically plural reference (not referring to the God of Israel).
In most English translations of the Bible (e.g. the King James Version), the letter G in "god" is capitalized in cases where Elohim refers to the God of Israel, but there is no distinction between upper and lower case in the Hebrew text.



as far as scholars and dating, i am not familiar with what you are talking about. if i recall, moses is around the 1200-1300 bc, and abraham about 2000 bc.




although, when we start going back that far, our accuracy is not as good. even with my above example, there is a spread of 100 years.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 05-31-2007, 01:17 AM   #920
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
you arent seriously arguing that judaism was not a monotheistic religion, are you ? if so, i wont debate such silliness with you.
I'm arguing that Judaism didn't start out as a monotheistic religion, but evolved into it, probably from an earlier Canaanite religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
in regards to elohim, i had never heard of it before.
That's surprising. It's the 3rd word of the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
according to the wiki and hebrew grammar, perhaps this may help.

Hebrew grammar

Elohim has plural morphological form in Hebrew, but it is used with singular verbs and adjectives in the Hebrew text when the particular meaning of the God of Israel (a singular deity) is traditionally understood. Thus the very first words of the Bible are breshit bara Elohim, where bara ברא is a verb inflected as third person singular masculine perfect. If Elohim were an ordinary plural word, then the plural verb form bar'u בראו would have been used in this sentence instead. Such plural grammatical forms are in fact found in cases where Elohim has semantically plural reference (not referring to the God of Israel).
In most English translations of the Bible (e.g. the King James Version), the letter G in "god" is capitalized in cases where Elohim refers to the God of Israel, but there is no distinction between upper and lower case in the Hebrew text.
Yeah, I'm familiar with that, but it doesn't really explain why a plural word is used for a monotheist's god. A likely explanation is that it's evidence of an earlier polytheistic oral tradition that couldn't be completely modified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
as far as scholars and dating, i am not familiar with what you are talking about. if i recall, moses is around the 1200-1300 bc, and abraham about 2000 bc.
Those dates were created under the assumption that the Bible provides an accurate timeline and genealogy. If you think the universe might have been created in more than 7 days, look at something like William G. Dever's book "Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come from?" for a good introduction to the archeological evidence.
__________________
"Drink deep or taste not the plasma spring!" - Seth Brundle
memebag is offline  
 
 
Old 05-31-2007, 08:45 PM   #921
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag View Post
I'm arguing that Judaism didn't start out as a monotheistic religion, but evolved into it, probably from an earlier Canaanite religion.

Those dates were created under the assumption that the Bible provides an accurate timeline and genealogy. If you think the universe might have been created in more than 7 days, look at something like William G. Dever's book "Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come from?" for a good introduction to the archeological evidence.
hi mem,

okay, i can buy your argument, here - as being reasonable. i think i told you before that a part of anyone's process to becoming a self-actualized person is to be able to separate what one knows from what one has been told.

as you know already, i am no big fan of the old testament. and i certainly dont have positive proof about anything that is in it. and as far as proof goes, i dont have any of the new testament, either.

so if your contention is that archaeological evidence suggests another time line, i cant definitively say that you are wrong.

as far as evolving, i dont know that we are even in disagreement, there. from what is written about abraham, he was in the far minority during his lifetime. so assuming that abraham did indeed start the monotheistic thought patterns, i think the most common way to look at it is that judaism is defined as these first monotheistic thought patterns. but they certainly evolved from a non-monotheistic society.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 05-31-2007, 11:04 PM   #922
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
as far as evolving, i dont know that we are even in disagreement, there. from what is written about abraham, he was in the far minority during his lifetime. so assuming that abraham did indeed start the monotheistic thought patterns, i think the most common way to look at it is that judaism is defined as these first monotheistic thought patterns. but they certainly evolved from a non-monotheistic society.
And they may have evolved after monotheism evolved in other places, and/or been influenced by other monotheistic religions, such as Atenism.
__________________
"Drink deep or taste not the plasma spring!" - Seth Brundle
memebag is offline  
 
 
Old 06-02-2007, 03:13 PM   #923
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

from wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism

Because of the monotheistic character of Atenism, a link to Judaism (and subsequently the monotheistic religions springing from it) has been suggested by various writers. Psychologist Sigmund Freud considered Akhenaten to be the pioneer of monotheistic religion and Moses as Akhenaten's follower in his book Moses and Monotheism (see also Osarseph). Recently, Ahmed Osman[1] has argued that Akhenaten and Moses are the same person. These views however haven't found widespread acceptance among historians.



any link to judaism or that it even predated judaism seems extremely weak, at this point. plus it lasted for only 20 years during one pharaoh's reign. it seems highly unlikely that this would have spread. i mean we are talking about 1000+ years bc. they werent exactly driving in cars at that time.

i sincerely doubt any connection between judaism and atenism. we seem to have clear dating for atenism. and most of our dating for judaism predates it. so at this point, we would need some major finds for me to have different suspicions.

remember, i dont have beliefs, as they are defined as acceptance of something without proof. however, i do have suspicions, in the sense that data seems to lead more towards this conclusion than it does for that conclusion. so i highly suspect that atenism had no influence on judaism. and i fairly highly suspect that judaism came before.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 06-02-2007, 04:14 PM   #924
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
any link to judaism or that it even predated judaism seems extremely weak, at this point. plus it lasted for only 20 years during one pharaoh's reign. it seems highly unlikely that this would have spread. i mean we are talking about 1000+ years bc. they werent exactly driving in cars at that time.
No, but Egypt traded with the Canaanites. You don't need cars to spread ideas, just words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
i sincerely doubt any connection between judaism and atenism. we seem to have clear dating for atenism. and most of our dating for judaism predates it. so at this point, we would need some major finds for me to have different suspicions.
What dating for Judaism are you talking about? All of the archeological evidence places the rise of monotheistic Judaism at or after the Aten cult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
remember, i dont have beliefs, as they are defined as acceptance of something without proof. however, i do have suspicions, in the sense that data seems to lead more towards this conclusion than it does for that conclusion. so i highly suspect that atenism had no influence on judaism. and i fairly highly suspect that judaism came before.
Why?
__________________
"Drink deep or taste not the plasma spring!" - Seth Brundle
memebag is offline  
 
 
Old 06-03-2007, 11:33 PM   #925
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag View Post
No, but Egypt traded with the Canaanites. You don't need cars to spread ideas, just words.
maybe egypt traded with the canaanites, maybe they didnt. assuming they did, what i was trying to get across is the amount of people contact would be one millionth of what it would be today.

and we are talking about 20 years with one pharaoh. heck, fads today last longer than that.

IT IS A HUGE REACH to think that atenism had anything to do with judaism.

we dont even seem to know when judaism occurred. and how accurate the egyptian history is - i dont know for sure.

lots of questions - few answers.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 06-04-2007, 12:21 AM   #926
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
maybe egypt traded with the canaanites, maybe they didnt. assuming they did, what i was trying to get across is the amount of people contact would be one millionth of what it would be today.
That's a common misunderstanding of the past. Ideas have been travelling through human populations as long as humans have had speech. Consider the etymology of the word cinnamon. It began, with the spice, in Malay as kayu manis. It travelled all the way to Judea (where it was qinnâmôn, and makes an appearance in the Bible) then to Greece (as kinnámōmon) where it was taken by Rome (as cinnamomum), which left it in France, which is where we found it.

Information travels with trade, and the Egyptians were major grain exporters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
IT IS A HUGE REACH to think that atenism had anything to do with judaism.
For you, I can see that it might be a huge reach. I doubt you've spent much time studying the subject. Your reach may well be limitted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
we dont even seem to know when judaism occurred. and how accurate the egyptian history is - i dont know for sure.
We have a good idea of when Judaism became monotheistic. I believe that you don't know much about the accuracy of Egyptian history, but luckily they left excellent records that can be and have been verified against other histories and archeological evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
lots of questions - few answers.
Perhaps you aren't looking hard enough.
__________________
"Drink deep or taste not the plasma spring!" - Seth Brundle
memebag is offline  
 
 
Old 06-04-2007, 12:41 AM   #927
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

it is not a common misunderstanding. the amount of contact people had with other countries 3000 years ago is miniscule, when compared with today.

did i say MINISCULE ?

and atenism lasted all of 20 years, before it was completely eradicated by the egyptian society. almost enough time to blink one's eyes. DID I SAY ERADICATED ?

LONG REACH. BIG STRETCH. perhaps it is your atheistic tendencies which keep you from admitting that this is extremely unlikely.

about the only way it would seem at all possible would be to say that the two ideas are all one and the same. but then these archaeology articles cant get even close to agreeing with each other.

the most anti-judaism one that i found said that the ot was written in the first century bc, and that abraham, moses, david, and solomon were just fictional characters.

i have read several archaeology and judaism links on the net. they are all over the place. and quite a few of them are pro-judaism. and of course, many are not.

like many non-believers, i suspect that you have used the information and interpretations that you want to be true.

i am well aware of how believers and non-believers (which make up the overwhelming majority), will twist whatever they find to agree with their pre-determined desires. i simply say that i am on the fence.

i dont consider the ot to be anything but a jewish history book. its descriptions about god have no likeness to the teachings of jesus.

perhaps a century or more from now, we will learn a lot more about it. i think you are jumping to conclusions based upon what you want to be true, just as believers do.

at least i hope we can learn a lot more. i am never afraid of the truth. it can only help us make better decisions for ourselves.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 06-04-2007, 01:33 AM   #928
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
i think you are jumping to conclusions based upon what you want to be true, just as believers do.
You think by speculating that monotheistic Judaism may have been influenced by other monotheistic religions that I'm jumping to conclusions? Sorry, I don't see it.
__________________
"Drink deep or taste not the plasma spring!" - Seth Brundle
memebag is offline  
 
 
Old 06-04-2007, 02:06 AM   #929
gymeejet
Sirius Star
 
Join Date: May 13, 2004
Posts: 5,491
gymeejet will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag View Post
You think by speculating that monotheistic Judaism may have been influenced by other monotheistic religions that I'm jumping to conclusions? Sorry, I don't see it.
why not quote me correctly, if you intend to do so. the above quote is not what i said, and you must know that your argument is weakening, or else you would not have made this post.
gymeejet is offline  
 
 
Old 06-04-2007, 02:17 AM   #930
memebag
Sirius Star
does god exist ?
 
memebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2006
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 2,320
memebag will become famous soon enoughmemebag will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
why not quote me correctly, if you intend to do so. the above quote is not what i said, and you must know that your argument is weakening, or else you would not have made this post.
Huh? You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
i think you are jumping to conclusions based upon what you want to be true, just as believers do.
How did I quote you incorrectly?
__________________
"Drink deep or taste not the plasma spring!" - Seth Brundle
memebag is offline  
 
 
 

Go Back   SIRIUS Backstage Forum > >


Digitalradiocentral.com




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:22 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.39 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
All Content Copyright SIRIUS Backstage. All Rights Reserved. SIRIUS and registered trademarks are the property of SIRIUS Satellite Radio, Inc. The opinions posted on SIRIUS Backstage website and forums are those of the individual posters and/or this website and are not necessarily the opinions or positions of SIRIUS Satellite Radio, Inc.