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Old 08-30-2007, 01:43 AM   #1006
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Default a little bit of church humor

dad is walking his son into church. he asks his son if he knows why they are quiet in church.

the son replies that he does.

the father, unconvinced, asks the son to tell him the reason.

the son very proudly says - "we dont want to disturb them while they are sleeping".
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Old 09-16-2007, 12:24 PM   #1007
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Default Famous Scientists Who Believed in God

http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...encefaith.html
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:17 PM   #1008
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Originally Posted by Minqua View Post
To be fair Gym, there is a large group of people that view the belief of god(s) as just as man-made as the flying spaghetti monster.

I mean we should just accept that god created the world because some book written by man 10,000 years ago says it was ?
hi minqua,

there is a huge difference. we can prove that the fsm, santa claus, and the easter bunny are man-made.

we can not prove this about god.

the notion of god, as the majority of people believe it to be, is some being that is not of this world, but was responsible for creating it.

in other words, god "existed" at a time when this universe did not.

so people who view that the fsm IS just as man-made as the notion of god, are simply vastly mistaken. one is provable, one is not.

i certainly never implied that we SHOULD BELIEVE it, based upon any book or notion.

i have no problem with someone who tends to think that god does not exist, or does exist.

i have equal problems with both atheists and theists, if we define these 2 groups as KNOWING whether or not god exists.

most people have the need to know how and why we are here - it gives us comfort and a sense of belonging. hell, i would love to know the answer to that question. for most of my life, I KNEW the answer. lol.
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:46 PM   #1009
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Default God and the Universe

First I want to point out that I firmly don't believe in God at all and I believe that the bible is the best selling book of fiction ever written.

The belief of 'God' and the Catholic religions have been around for aproximately 4 thousand years. Long before this relatively young religion came around there were other religions around for just as long, if not longer (Egyptian, Celtic, etc). So to say they had it all wrong and this new religion is right is some what pretentious.

As for the belief that 'God' made the universe because we don't know where it came, I find laughable. The idea of creating something out of what we think is nothing is not that hard to comprehend. If you take Oxygen and Hydrogen, two colorless oderless gasses that we can't see, apply a small charge and you get an explosion and water. Physical matter from seamingly nothing. We have already found that there is something called "Dark Matter" in the universe. We can't see it, it gives off no radiation, but we can see the effect of it gravity (called gravitational lensing). In fact dark matter represents aproximatly 80% of the matter in the universe. If you compare that to the idea that we can get water from seemingly nothing, why couldn't the universe be an interaction between dark matter and something else (say anti-matter, and yes science has proven it exists) which caused and explosion, creating protons, electrons, neutrons. These base atomic particals coelesed into Hydrogen which then clumped together in bigger and bigger balls. These balls, due their own gavitational weight began to create a fusion reaction. From here it's standard solar life cycle, elements being created into the giant fusion reactor until it starts creating Iron then, depending on the size of the star, it expodes, spreading all the elements accross the cosmos for new stars to be born from it's gasses.

As for Life being unique to earth... although we haven't had a 100% proven fact that life is anywhere else, the chemicals required to create DNA and celluar structures have been detected in nebulas in space.
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:01 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by bwoodfield View Post

As for the belief that 'God' made the universe because we don't know where it came, I find laughable.
i dont think this is correctly stated for most people.

i would say that "god" is a possible answer to how it came into existence, for believers.
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:04 AM   #1011
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The idea of creating something out of what we think is nothing is not that hard to comprehend. If you take Oxygen and Hydrogen, two colorless oderless gasses that we can't see, apply a small charge and you get an explosion and water. Physical matter from seamingly nothing.
"seemingly nothing" is not the same as "nothing". in this example, we werent able to know about oxygen and hydrogen, because we were using our eyes as discovery tools.

"nothing" is nothing. it is not synonymous with an inability to be aware of something. by definition, said something does not exist, so it can not be discovered with the use of any tool, discovered or not.
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:08 AM   #1012
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We have already found that there is something called "Dark Matter" in the universe. We can't see it, it gives off no radiation, but we can see the effect of it gravity (called gravitational lensing). In fact dark matter represents aproximatly 80% of the matter in the universe. If you compare that to the idea that we can get water from seemingly nothing, why couldn't the universe be an interaction between dark matter and something else (say anti-matter, and yes science has proven it exists) which caused and explosion, creating protons, electrons, neutrons. These base atomic particals coelesed into Hydrogen which then clumped together in bigger and bigger balls. These balls, due their own gavitational weight began to create a fusion reaction. From here it's standard solar life cycle, elements being created into the giant fusion reactor until it starts creating Iron then, depending on the size of the star, it expodes, spreading all the elements accross the cosmos for new stars to be born from it's gasses.
this does not answer the question whether god exists or not. it simply pushes the envelope further. where did the dark matter and anti-matter come from ?
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:11 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by bwoodfield View Post

As for Life being unique to earth... although we haven't had a 100% proven fact that life is anywhere else, the chemicals required to create DNA and celluar structures have been detected in nebulas in space.
i am not sure what this has to do with the notion of god.

are you somehow positing that if we found life elsewhere that this would tend to negate the presence of a god ?

i wouldnt be a bit surprised if there is life out there. i dont know if dna is a requirement for it, though. it is just how life developed here.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:23 PM   #1014
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Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
i dont think this is correctly stated for most people.

i would say that "god" is a possible answer to how it came into existence, for believers.
Well yes for believers, "god" is the answer to everything that they don't understand. For people who believe in Scientology, Zenu is the answer to everything (Although I do think that the idea of following a religion created by a failed science fiction writer is somewhat beyond belief).

We don't know whats beyond the scope of our universe. There could be countless universes, like soap bubbles in a bathtub. The thought of saying "god made it all", I feel, is just another way for people to say that "it's not my problem", "it's out of my control".
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:36 PM   #1015
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Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
"seemingly nothing" is not the same as "nothing". in this example, we werent able to know about oxygen and hydrogen, because we were using our eyes as discovery tools.

"nothing" is nothing. it is not synonymous with an inability to be aware of something. by definition, said something does not exist, so it can not be discovered with the use of any tool, discovered or not.
My point was that people were saying that the universe sprang from nothing. I don't believe that was a correct statement. It is only within the last 100 or so years that we can actually prove that elements like oxygen and hydrogen exist. Just because we can't see or measure dark matter, anti-matter and other exotic matters doesn't mean they don't exist. As you stated, "it is not synonymous with an inability to be aware of something", so to say that the universe sprang from nothing because we can't see or measure what is was created from is incorrect.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:47 PM   #1016
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Originally Posted by gymeejet View Post
i am not sure what this has to do with the notion of god.

are you somehow positing that if we found life elsewhere that this would tend to negate the presence of a god ?

i wouldnt be a bit surprised if there is life out there. i dont know if dna is a requirement for it, though. it is just how life developed here.
My whole piont was that there are many people who believe that god made the universe, made the earth then bent down and made man from dirt in his own image. Life is not unique to this planet, we are the creation of evolution, not the image of a god. We are still evolving even today. So if we find intelegent life somewhere else and it doesn't look like us, who's god are they made in the image of?

Does god exist?... If we can quantify and measure "God", would it still be a god or a process of the universe that we've simply classified. And as you stated previously, if we can't quantify and measure it by and means discovered or not, it does not exist.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:35 PM   #1017
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Originally Posted by bwoodfield View Post
The thought of saying "god made it all", I feel, is just another way for people to say that "it's not my problem", "it's out of my control".
i can agree with that, to a point. i think a better way of phrasing it is a belief in some being as opposed to some random event.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:37 PM   #1018
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My point was that people were saying that the universe sprang from nothing. I don't believe that was a correct statement. It is only within the last 100 or so years that we can actually prove that elements like oxygen and hydrogen exist. Just because we can't see or measure dark matter, anti-matter and other exotic matters doesn't mean they don't exist. As you stated, "it is not synonymous with an inability to be aware of something", so to say that the universe sprang from nothing because we can't see or measure what is was created from is incorrect.
i see your point. but there was a time when this universe did not exist. so nothing in it, existed.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:40 PM   #1019
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My whole piont was that there are many people who believe that god made the universe, made the earth then bent down and made man from dirt in his own image. Life is not unique to this planet, we are the creation of evolution, not the image of a god. We are still evolving even today. So if we find intelegent life somewhere else and it doesn't look like us, who's god are they made in the image of?
you are taking some phrases that are meant to be taken figuratively, and attaching very literal meanings to them.

i suspect god exists. and i do my best to follow the teachings of jesus. but i dont have thought patterns like the ones you mentioned above. and i think you would find that many, if not most, people who tend to suspect that god exists, also do not have those same literal meanings that you posted above.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:41 PM   #1020
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Does god exist?... If we can quantify and measure "God", would it still be a god or a process of the universe that we've simply classified. And as you stated previously, if we can't quantify and measure it by and means discovered or not, it does not exist.
you got your logic messed up. i never said the above statement that you are attributing to me.
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