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Old 10-07-2005, 02:31 AM   #91
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interesting article - i wonder if it has any implications regarding our use of hydrogen as a fuel ?
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Old 10-07-2005, 10:30 AM   #92
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That's why I posted it and to demonstrate their are many things left undiscovered. That article is entirely based on mathamatic modeling and not tangible evidence. But it's real, just like a superconductor. I hope it has an impact on hydrogen fuel studies. If so we could be entering a "fantasy" realm where you just pop a cube in the car and it runs for 100 years.
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Old 10-07-2005, 10:47 AM   #93
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btw, i am not sure where you got the info, but i do not believe that the earth was created 4000 years ago.
You represent a growing transformation among Christians when presented with scientific knowledge. I spent decades discussing the improbability that the universe was only a few thousand years old. You can find many sites dedicated to what I call "junk science" that tried to prove through holes in theory that the universe, the oceans and the earth are very young. Now there is a better understanding especially through the ability to search any theory in seconds. And then one day someone said, there is no proof that 7 days meant seven earth days. Insinuating that 7 days took 700000000000000000000000000 years.

I don't see why belief in god has to be limited to papers written by man. But since God's existence is intangible except for those books Christians and other members of world faith hold to them as infallible because it then proves the word of man was wrong. And another thing....

Given the vast technicality of the universe, it's size, age, wonderment. Why would god care if a life form left to it's own devices mutated into a being that loves another of the same sex. This extreme being we can barely even imagine outside out universe would have probably gave us a few words of wisdom and went about his business. It was man who created the evils in the bible and man who corrupts it. Not god.
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Old 10-07-2005, 10:54 AM   #94
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I've had this sort of discussion with gymeejet (and other magic-believers) before.

It's one thing to postulate the existence of some supernatural being in order to explain away the creation of the universe. I don't agree with the need, but at least I find it understandable---it's similar to how ancient Greeks or Romans had various gods to explain away the natural world that they didn't understand. Now that modern man understand more about the universe, all that's left for a deity to do is create the whole thing.

Anyway, it's one thing to invent a universe-creator...it's a whole other thing to then believe that said supernatural creator actually cares about what humans do to another or wants humans to spend Sundays in a building worshiping if or cares if humans eat pork or meat or Fridays or any of that.
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:34 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Amnesia

Anyway, it's one thing to invent a universe-creator...it's a whole other thing to then believe that said supernatural creator actually cares about what humans do to another.
this is usually or typically done in search for the answer to the question "is there a purpose or reason why i am here ?"

for those who do not believe, then that question should not even come to mind. but for those who do believe, it seems reasonable to think that we were made for some purpose.
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Old 10-08-2005, 01:05 PM   #96
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for those who do not believe, then that question should not even come to mind. but for those who do believe, it seems reasonable to think that we were made for some purpose.
I agree. I think the idea of a supernatural inventor-creator is absurd, but if one were to exist, then the idea of purpose behind that creation follows naturally in my opinion.
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Old 10-09-2005, 12:31 PM   #97
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hi prymel,

lets face it - the answer to that question is apt to be so far beyond us, that we cant even imagine it.

if our knowledge of our universe has even a smidgeon of similarity to what is on the outside, then i daresay that the thought that the creation of this universe came from an inanimate object/force seems even more absurd than the notion of god.

if it has no smidgeon of similarity, then that notion would carry the same level of absurdity, whatever that may be, as the notion that there is a god.
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Old 10-10-2005, 12:59 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by RoadClosed
That's why I posted it and to demonstrate their are many things left undiscovered.
well that's for sure. actually, i dont think we are all that close to understanding the universe. imo, there are gaping holes in all these theories.

the current facts state that the universe is 150 billion light years in diameter. although many scientists say that is just the limit that we know about - it could be much vaster.

yet it is only 15 billion years old. if you figure that as a radius, then the diameter of light travelling in all directions is only 30 billion light years across.

it would seem to me that at some point in time, space expanded many times faster than the speed of light. and the matter that is in these areas has moved further than it would have, had it been travelling at the speed of light.

it makes one wonder if the "speed of light" is really this magic speed at which nothing can overpass.
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Old 10-11-2005, 12:47 PM   #99
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it could be much vaster.
And it is. Light only travels so fast. We are limited to how far we can see based on this limitation.

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yet it is only 15 billion years old.
Light was not "created" at the outset. It came along later as you hinted here; "space expanded many times faster than the speed of light." There was no photon particle like thing yet (light). In fact I would have to look it up but I believe light came hundreds or thousands of years later.

Quote:
it makes one wonder if the "speed of light" is really this magic speed at which nothing can overpass.
It would be nice. If we could go faster than light we could reverse time as perceived. I could leave before I left etc. That sounds craxy but think. If moving faster than the light traveling to your eye, I would pop right next to you before you saw me leave. Make sense? (More about time perception dimension etc and what time is).

But as it stands an object has matter or weight and E =MC2 seems unforgivable. Remember it states that the energy (E) necessary to accelerate are equal to the mass (M) of an object multiplied by the speed of light (C) and it's all squared. So the energy needed to accelerate to C (the speed of light) can never be attained. We can get close but never the same. But in quantum theories things look strange... I keep mentioning building blocks... try this one on... does gravity move at the speed of light? Or it's influence? It takes a few minutes for light to reach us from the sun. If it just suddenly popped out of existence would we feel it, that is the gravity shift instantaneously or a few minutes later.
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Old 10-11-2005, 03:33 PM   #100
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so then you agree - at some point, space was expanding at a speed that was greater than the speed of light ?
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Old 10-12-2005, 12:00 PM   #101
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so then you agree - at some point, space was expanding at a speed that was greater than the speed of light ?
Yes but we will never know for sure but it does so now. So why not in the beginning. Hows that for a wammo. Space expands faster than the speed of light.

I typed a long response yesterday and it was deleted because the site logged me off. But this one is much simpler. I also typed one to Takebackamerica today in the politics thread but it did the same thing. So I am super pissed.
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Old 10-12-2005, 02:49 PM   #102
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are you saying that space may still be expanding faster than light ?

i thought we already knew the rate of its expansion, and that it was accelerating ?

i used to think of the expansion of space and the movement of our galaxies as 2 different things. but i read in at least some places, that the expansion of space is dragging the galaxies with it.

if space was/is expanding faster than light, and it is pulling matter along with it, it would at least seem plausible that matter was/is also moving faster than light, which according to einstein, is impossible.
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Old 10-12-2005, 04:07 PM   #103
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gymeejet,

Einstein is still correct. I kept harping on motion and relativity for a reason especially velocities and now angular motion.

If we were to measure an object flying by we still cannot accelerate any object (with mass at rest) to the speed of light. From our measurement perspective or, get this key word, "inertial frame" of reference - our relative acceleration and movement according the the object makes the rile apply. And that goes for anything contained within our frame of reference. Which happens to be the entire galaxy and we cannot change that. But, and this gets weird...

The Hubble constant (love Hubble, there is a reason a space observatory is names the Hubble Telescope) is what is used to determine how fast universe expansion is. We know by "looking" that galaxies are moving away from our vantage point.

In 2003 WMAP provided satellite data to determine this constant to be 71 km/s/Mpc. I might have that measurement detail wrong but it's kilometers per second per megaparsec. Given that (you can read up on Hubble Constant for detail) it is observed that galaxies are not only moving away at the speed of light but.... faster. Which will one day make them invisible to us since the last bit of light we see can no longer reach is as they accelerate away.

How do we know this if we can't measure things going that fast. By the rate of expansion we know and the Hubble constant no galaxies should be greater apart that that number 71. Well that's too simplified. You have to take the 71 kps movement and factor in the speed of light for a distance. Lets say 300,000 kps. If you multiply that it's a huge number which is where megaparsec come in. The quick answer is 4,200 mega parsecs. So we look, are there any galaxies with distances in comparison to 1 another that are further than 42? Yep.

So then one wonders are there any galaxies in the visible light spectrum that we can see that are moving away faster than light? If so how do we tell? Scientists figured that (I am getting to the point) any object with a red shift of 1.4z is moving faster than light. Some black holes measure 5!

You noted that the universe is expanding. So light reaching us now in say a 1.4z galaxy reaches us because the light has outrun the rate of universe expansion. While in time it will not, the universe expansion seems to be accelerating. As for Einstein think about the word space...
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Old 10-12-2005, 08:47 PM   #104
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the weird thing about relativity, which at least for me i did not grasp for some time - is that it is all about what we measure - not what is.

being extremely logical and rational, i tend to think of what is.

what is - is based on being in the same reference as the object.

so for example, if i am going real fast, i measure a ruler as being only 6 inches long, and a second as only half a second.

the key is MY MEASUREMENT. the ruler itself did not shrink, nor did the second.

so with these equations, people can MEASURE based upon their reference, and each come up with CONSISTENT answers.

but consistent does not mean actual.

when i think about space expanding, i am not using my reference point on earth, and measuring. i am thinking of a point going in all directions, forming a sphere - and then wondering how fast the radius of that sphere is expanding.

so the galaxies, if far enough away, could be "moving away from us" at faster than the speed of light. but this is not the same as matter moving, but rather a reference point moving.

i think einstein in his book explains a particular example that is similar. he says imagine a pair of scissors with blades a light year long. when you open the scissors, the points can move away from each other at faster than the speed of light. but again these are reference points. the actual scissor blades (the real matter) is not moving at post-light speeds.
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Old 10-12-2005, 08:52 PM   #105
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in fact, according to special relativity, if i am moving at the speed of light, i move across the entire universe - i record no time elapsed, no space moved, and i would guess i would see a light beam in my direction as having no velocity when compared to me, since it is travelling at the same speed as me.

this is just in my direction of motion. but there is virtually no time, no space, and light stands still, in my direction of reference. if this is true, it seems like it points to something phenomenally interesting and important.
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