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Old 09-24-2005, 08:05 PM   #1
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Default does god exist ?

i suspect that the notion of "god" first came about as the answer to "who created the universe ?"

we know that the universe exists today.

therefore, either (1) the universe never had a beginning, or (2) the universe was able to create itself from nothing, or (3) something outside of this universe was responsible for its creation.

lets look at #1 - first this would break the cause and effect law, as there would have been no cause. secondly, it would undermine many other concepts. for example, we know thru hubble, that the universe is expanding still. we also know its rate of expansion. if it continues to expand forever, scientists can predict the density of the universe, at (10 to the 10th) years, and so on. but if the universe has always existed, then why is it still expanding ? since an infinite amount of time would have elapsed, without a beginning, the universe would already be at its end state. it seems pretty obvious to me that this conclusion is completely false, and even scientists think it had a beginning, in the big bang.

lets look at #2 - this also violates the cause and effect principle. also it begs the question of how is something created from nothing, when by definition, there is nothing.

#3 is all that is left - it seems to me to be the overwhelming correct choice. that is, that this universe was created by some phenomena that exists outside of the universe.

however, this is as far as we can go, because we are stuck in this universe. no assumptions about what is outside of "our black box" can be made, because all knowledge that we have pertains only to this universe. whether any of it applies outside this universe, will always be an unknown to us, while we are still in this universe.

things like space, size, shape, matter, time, mass, length, temperature, etc. may or may not have any meaning whatsoever outside of this universe. our minds could not exist without these concepts.

i do believe that god, or basically some sort of conscious entity, does exist, and is responsible for this universe, and others, if they exist at all. it just seems likely to me that something this complex is not something random.

i hope these things become clear to me if we do have a journey that we complete.
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Old 09-24-2005, 08:13 PM   #2
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My opinion, no!
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Old 09-24-2005, 08:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tdcompton
My opinion, no!
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Old 09-24-2005, 09:16 PM   #4
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There is a fourth option:

What caused the big bang? Was it just a bunch of matter that condensed in on itself, over time becoming larger and larger before one day it exploded/imploded(I don't know which term is correct here)? Nobody knows what caused the big bang.

I for one think that this is not the argument to look at to see if God exists. For example, the reason many cultures have God(s) was originally to explain the unknown. "Why did that big lightning bolt come down from the sky?" "Because God is angry at us." Many people look too hard for a cause for every event, and it seems that the cause cannot be unknown. Thus, people labeled the unexplainable(at the time) as an act of God. To say that there are three possible reasons why the universe formed is not the correct way to go about it. It is not a simple 'circle the most correct answer' multiple choice test. And while the simplist answer is generally the correct one as you said, you do not know if there is a simpler answer. What if the universe was originally one star or planet, much as the Earth's land was originally one continent? The giant star simply supernovaed or a variant thereof, and created our universe.
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Old 09-24-2005, 10:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDee
There is a fourth option:
What caused the big bang? Was it just a bunch of matter that condensed in on itself, over time becoming larger and larger before one day it exploded/imploded(I don't know which term is correct here)? Nobody knows what caused the big bang.
if you are suggesting that this condensed matter was a part of this universe before creation, then obviously that would be false, since by definition, there was no universe before its creation.

if you are suggesting that this condensed matter was not a part of this universe before its creation, then you are confirming that something outside of this universe indeed caused the creation of this universe.

you are right that nobody knows what caused the big bang, and nobody ever will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDee
I for one think that this is not the argument to look at to see if God exists.
as i pointed out, there is no argument to look at to see if god exists. it is not something that we can debate about - my set of facts versus your set of facts. the most we can do is offer our opinions based upon what we might see as being most likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDee
What if the universe was originally one star or planet, much as the Earth's land was originally one continent? The giant star simply supernovaed or a variant thereof, and created our universe.
you are simply just continuing to ask the question. what caused the giant star to exist, assuming there could be a giant star outside of this universe.

logically, my 3 choices cover every possibility - with regards to the creation of the universe, not the answer to "does god exist".

the first 2 choices go against all the physical laws that are present in this universe. the 3rd says that something outside of this universe was responsible for its creation. anything outside of this universe is not necessarily subject to the physics that we have inside this universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDee
I for one think that this is not the argument to look at to see if God exists. For example, the reason many cultures have God(s) was originally to explain the unknown. "Why did that big lightning bolt come down from the sky?" "Because God is angry at us." Many people look too hard for a cause for every event, and it seems that the cause cannot be unknown. Thus, people labeled the unexplainable(at the time) as an act of God.
i agree with this, that people have used / do use god to explain the unknown - i was just giving the supreme example of "how did we come to be".
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Old 09-24-2005, 11:05 PM   #6
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I dont think there is a god. How can we be certain that the universe didnt always exist
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Old 09-24-2005, 11:09 PM   #7
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Yes God does exist. God is love
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Old 09-24-2005, 11:35 PM   #8
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I not really a religious person, but I think there is a God!
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Old 09-25-2005, 12:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuN
I dont think there is a god. How can we be certain that the universe didnt always exist
i gave you one example, when one assumes that the universe has always been. they revolve around an "infinite amount of time having already elapsed".

the example i gave you was that of the universe in a state of expanse. scientists can evaluate different stages down the road. pick a number of years - lets say a billion, billion years from now. scientists can tell by the rate of expansion, about how far into the expansion it will go.

the paradox - why has it not reached that point already ?

there is an infinite number of (a billion, billion years) in infinity. a trillion, gazillion, bazillion, trizillion number of years. there is still an infinite number of them. take the absolute largest number that you can rally off in a minutes worth of time, and still an infinite number of that number of years has gone by.

anything that does not take an infinite amount of time to do, would have already been done. if it took an infinite amount of time, we would not be able to measure its rate of accomplishment.
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Old 09-25-2005, 12:56 AM   #10
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Recommended reading: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist

It argues the point scientifically. You can skip the first two chapters that are a little boring, but beginning with chapter 3, the evidence is overwhelming. It really does take MORE faith to be an atheist.
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Old 09-25-2005, 01:10 AM   #11
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Just out of curiousity, why is this topic in the Political Asylum Forum?

I thought that....
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Old 09-25-2005, 02:11 AM   #12
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hi ld,

thanks for the tip.

lol on your political asylum comment.

i had originally placed it in the doghouse, thinking like you.

however, one of the mods must feel that God is an Independent.
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Old 09-25-2005, 12:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linedrivehit
It argues the point scientifically. You can skip the first two chapters that are a little boring, but beginning with chapter 3, the evidence is overwhelming. It really does take MORE faith to be an atheist.
OK, first of all, I haven't read the book (nor even heard of it before now), but I have a really, really hard time imagining that a book could "scientifically" claim that there is any evidence for a Christian god.

What scientific evidence could there be that some man named Yeshua or Jesus had magical powers and came back from the dead some 2000 years ago? All we have are stories.

Can you give some examples of the "scientific evidence" that's presented?

EDIT: A quick look via Amazon's "look inside this book" feature seems to indicate that the authors' "scientific evidence" is really just a set of arguments like: "Why would Jesus's followers make up the story that he came back from the dead? They wouldn't, therefore it must be true."
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Old 09-25-2005, 01:18 PM   #14
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hi amnesia,

i havent read the book. but looking at ld's comments, i thought it was more about whether there might be a god or not - not claiming anything about WHO this god was.

the opposite of "atheist" is a believer in god, not a believer in jesus.

as i have pointed out, i think the scientific evidence points extremely high that the universe was created by some phenomena outside of the universe.

it seems to me, with my very limited mind, that the betting odds is that this phenomena is not a random event, but one that was thought out - i.e. the typical concept of god.

i am not foolish enough to go any further and try to claim there is science to prove that jesus is this phenomena (i believe it simply because that is how i was taught).

i may be wrong, but i was not thinking that this book was attempting to prove that jesus was god.
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Old 09-25-2005, 01:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
i may be wrong, but i was not thinking that this book was attempting to prove that jesus was god.
Nope, the book claims that the New Testament is the truth and anyone who doesn't accept that is ignoring the overwhelming "evidence".
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