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Old 01-21-2006, 02:40 AM   #121
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I must say this has been an interesting discussion, one I was not going to comment upon, but decided to put my two cents in since I actually am professor in a traditional classroom setting. Two things strike me as being overlooked from my perspective, and my reaction if this were to actually occur. First I would ask the student to step out and explain why he has a firearm in lecture, officer or not, weapons are not allowed on campus and remind him/her that it does need to be stowed and not brought back into class if he wants to continue to attend. The choice is his/hers if they wants to attend my lecture, like any other student they will not be disruptive to fellow students. Having a firearm visible in class could easily be distracting to a student therefore infringing upon their ability to focus on what is being presented. It would be no different if a student came in wearing no clothing or playing a radio. I would also ask them to modify their behavior to be appropriate to the environment. Barring the fact he would in violation of the universities regulations I cannot see how it would be appropriate for the student to have a weapon in clear sight. She/he is not working and is not some hostile environment where he needs to fear for our safety or his own. In my view it pretty much boils down to a choice on the students part, you can comply with the rules I set forth and attend or choose not to attend my lecture. Nobody is forcing you to relinquish your firearm it is simply a condition to be in the present environment.
One other brief comment I can empathize in the horrific scenes you have witnessed but in fairness it comes along with the profession, this is in fact an aspect of the job. If they do not make that clear to trainees that is truly unfortunate. I do not wish you to misconstrue what I am attempting to say, or negating what you have witnessed while your service on the force, nor do I think most officers are 'assholes'. As this is not my goal, my goal is to merely point out that in fact a gun in plain view is a distraction and detracts from the learning environment.
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Old 01-21-2006, 02:38 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msd2
I must say this has been an interesting discussion, one I was not going to comment upon, but decided to put my two cents in since I actually am professor in a traditional classroom setting. Two things strike me as being overlooked from my perspective, and my reaction if this were to actually occur. First I would ask the student to step out and explain why he has a firearm in lecture, officer or not, weapons are not allowed on campus and remind him/her that it does need to be stowed and not brought back into class if he wants to continue to attend. The choice is his/hers if they wants to attend my lecture, like any other student they will not be disruptive to fellow students. Having a firearm visible in class could easily be distracting to a student therefore infringing upon their ability to focus on what is being presented. It would be no different if a student came in wearing no clothing or playing a radio. I would also ask them to modify their behavior to be appropriate to the environment. Barring the fact he would in violation of the universities regulations I cannot see how it would be appropriate for the student to have a weapon in clear sight. She/he is not working and is not some hostile environment where he needs to fear for our safety or his own. In my view it pretty much boils down to a choice on the students part, you can comply with the rules I set forth and attend or choose not to attend my lecture. Nobody is forcing you to relinquish your firearm it is simply a condition to be in the present environment.
One other brief comment I can empathize in the horrific scenes you have witnessed but in fairness it comes along with the profession, this is in fact an aspect of the job. If they do not make that clear to trainees that is truly unfortunate. I do not wish you to misconstrue what I am attempting to say, or negating what you have witnessed while your service on the force, nor do I think most officers are 'assholes'. As this is not my goal, my goal is to merely point out that in fact a gun in plain view is a distraction and detracts from the learning environment.
Thank you for telling me how you feel. They do tell us all about during training, but, you never really understand it until you have been there. My point was only to show that LEO's are always the perfect person.

As for the rest, I would take exception to you asking me to leave the class and here is why.

1. I am a sworn LEO. I am not just the average citizen coming to class with a hangun. I did not raise me hand and swear to enforce the laws in this ONLY while I am on duty. I don't know about other states, but in my state, I can arrest someone off-duty in plain clothes just like I am on duty in uniform.

Also, maybe I have a problem and need to be armed at all times. Maybe a threat for a person I have arrested. Maybe a violent person I arrested attends your University. Again, I cannot speak of the laws in other states, but in mine, I CAN carry a firearm on ANY school campus.

With this in mind, I am not sure if I could be refused permission to attend the class.

How about if my Agency paid me to attend yuor class as part of my training and the Agency ordered me to attend in uniform. Would I still be refused permission to the class?

What happens if you took a chance and let me sit there and there wasn't any distraction? What happens if no one noticed? Would I still be required to leave your class because YOU have a problem with the gun??

As for the disruption, that I can't really comment on. But, I can see your point. My question is, how far does the distraction have to go before someone cannot attend your class? Who makes the determination as to what a distraction is?

If I come in your class with a Turban on and someone inthe class object, is that enough?

How about if someone doesn't want a Asian person in the class because they feel they are too "disruptive"? I guess what I am asking is, how far will it go because one person or several people feel distracted by this?

I agree that carring it open with no ID can be somewhat concerning in a classroom setting. But, if the situation required having the weapon, would they still be able to attend?

I am not trying to come down hard on you here. I am merely stating a position that I feel is justified. I am allowed to carry it, I might be required to carry it and if YOU don't let me in the class, aren't you depriving me of something I paid for for doing nothing legelly wrong?
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Old 01-21-2006, 02:49 PM   #123
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Moral of the story,

Once a redneck always a redneck.


That's like praying to Allah as your plane lifts off and NOT expecting to get beheaded by the other passengers.

If you instigate panic, expect the worst. Carry a gun in plane view and expect to be harassed.

2nd amendment ran out of steam when PAID OFFICERS OF THE LAW were put into play. The threat of the KIND OF ENGLAND usurping your land is kinda dated. You got a problem, call the cops. They'll rush over with plenty of guns.
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Old 01-21-2006, 03:45 PM   #124
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Thank you for telling me how you feel. They do tell us all about during training, but, you never really understand it until you have been there. My point was only to show that LEO's are always the perfect person.

- I can understand, I have had much experience previously in working with trauma work and its true, its hard to explain what it is like until it is witnessed first hand. As far as LEO's being perfect, to error is human.

As for the rest, I would take exception to you asking me to leave the class and here is why.

1. I am a sworn LEO. I am not just the average citizen coming to class with a hangun. I did not raise me hand and swear to enforce the laws in this ONLY while I am on duty. I don't know about other states, but in my state, I can arrest someone off-duty in plain clothes just like I am on duty in uniform.

- Thats great but how is anyone else to know this if you just come to class in regular street cloths with your gun attached to your side?

Also, maybe I have a problem and need to be armed at all times. Maybe a threat for a person I have arrested. Maybe a violent person I arrested attends your University. Again, I cannot speak of the laws in other states, but in mine, I CAN carry a firearm on ANY school campus.

- If this is the case maybe you should seriously consider other options, why would you as an officer put yourself in a possibly hostile situation where innocent bystanders could be harmed. If your on-duty nobody will have a problem with you carrying a firearm.

With this in mind, I am not sure if I could be refused permission to attend the class.

How about if my Agency paid me to attend yuor class as part of my training and the Agency ordered me to attend in uniform. Would I still be refused permission to the class?

-Yes in the classes that I teach it would not matter to me who pays for the course. If this is a room full of officers that is a different situation and obviously it would be a moot point and permission is implicit. But in a regular class you said yourself it is unwise to show up in uniform to be a target, so if that is the case maybe a safer option is available for everyone involved. I could be convinced as a professor if you were in uniform to probably to stay if you elected to not bring in your weapons, night stick, cuffs etc.

What happens if you took a chance and let me sit there and there wasn't any distraction? What happens if no one noticed? Would I still be required to leave your class because YOU have a problem with the gun??

- I wouldnt take that chance, and your example of when you went to pick up your daughter is testament to the fact ppl will and do notice. If the student did NOT expose his gun and was in normal attire the problem would be no existant. And yes you would still be asked to leave, it would be distracting to me as a professor and I have an obligation to enstill as much knowledge to my students as possible. Ironically, I don't have a problem with guns, I own several, but I only bring them to an appropriate location. What I DO have a problem with is him bring it to my class because it serves no purpose.

As for the disruption, that I can't really comment on. But, I can see your point. My question is, how far does the distraction have to go before someone cannot attend your class? Who makes the determination as to what a distraction is?

-Like every other situation it requires judgement, same as you on the job you decide the amount of force necessary to apply to a situation. Since this is my classroom in which I am responsible for I make the decision utlimately. You use your professional judgement and I use mine.

If I come in your class with a Turban on and someone inthe class object, is that enough?

-Clearly not and these are two very different situations, one is a religious/cultural belief, the other because you want to. I have never heard of anyone being afraid of a turban accidentally going off and killing someone. Meaning since I control the classroom and judge it to be an irrational fear that a majority of people would not be uncomfortable with you, (the person afraid of turbans) are free to look for another section.

How about if someone doesn't want a Asian person in the class because they feel they are too "disruptive"? I guess what I am asking is, how far will it go because one person or several people feel distracted by this?

- Of course you realize the obsurdity of your logic, and I understand the point you are attempting to make, but someone does not choose their race and in a civilized society we make certain comprimises with our own personal likes/dislikes for the society at large. If you dont like Asian ppl then don't attend my class if asian ppl are present. I am not here to impress my desires onto you, and I expect the same of you. You, as a student are making a conscious decision to attend, nobody is forcing you to. If you cannot comply with what is required you need to find another lecturer that is sympathetic to your plight, or simply comply with what is requested. We all need to at times set aside our own personal wants to attain ultimate goals.

I agree that carring it open with no ID can be somewhat concerning in a classroom setting. But, if the situation required having the weapon, would they still be able to attend?

- I can't think of any situation that would require him to have a weapon during my class. If he is in that much danger of being attacked he should seriously consider why he is putting so many other innocent people in danger and come up with other viable options. Such as courses online.

I am not trying to come down hard on you here. I am merely stating a position that I feel is justified. I am allowed to carry it, I might be required to carry it and if YOU don't let me in the class, aren't you depriving me of something I paid for for doing nothing legelly wrong?

- First the point is your not allowed to unless you are on duty to carry a weapon onto campus. If the issue is that pressing for you the solution is simple keep it stowed in your backpack and out of sight. Nobody would be the wiser. Would I prefer this no, but I strongly prefer it to someone walking around campus with a gun exposed. Second you are denying yourself to attend the class, you are not meeting the requirements set forth to attend. People are denied classes all the time, if you dont meet the prereq's you simply cannot attend. If you stated to the regestrar you intend on bringing a gun onto campus she would not register you for the class. My first and foremost job is to give my students a learning enviroment to attain as much knowledge as possible in as comfortable and condusive learning enviroment as reasonably possible. By this student coming in carrying a firearm for no appearent reason he is adversely affecting my primary job and depriving fellow students of the best possible learning enviroment I can provide. This is the same response if a student came into my class with raver gear on, lights flashing, and all that. I would ask them to either show up appropriate for class or find another section. As I stated before you can try to find another section, or get a refund for the class. Nowhere does it state that because you paid for something that if you cannot comply with the classes requirements prior to enrollement that you must be allowed to stay.
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Old 01-21-2006, 03:59 PM   #125
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And if you showed up to class necked, you'd be asked to leave. As you would if you had a FUCK YOU shirt, swastika tats.

I have a licence to drive a tractor trailer. Does that mean I can park it in the community parking lot?

Hell no.

School books? yes. Firearms, don't think so.
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Old 01-21-2006, 04:18 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engfant
As you would if you had a FUCK YOU shirt, swastika tats.
Shirt, yes. Tattoo, no. There are many laws regarding so-called obscene language, but there's no law again someone having a swastika tattoo any more than there is against someone having a Star of David tattoo.

Again, it doesn't matter whether or not someone else is bothered by it.
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Old 01-21-2006, 07:48 PM   #127
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well, i will say that the overwhelming percentage of people who are not gun carriers will have the same viewpoints that msd and i have on it. he is mirroring what i think the vast majority would expect.

so i would expect someone to tell me that people who are licensed to carry guns are able to take their guns into the classroom - since the overwhelming thought by the average joe wanting to get an education is that there would not be guns in the classroom, any more than the students would all be naked.
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Old 01-21-2006, 07:55 PM   #128
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personally, i think i would cancel my class if a uniformed policeman attended a class, even minus his weapons.

i might even think he is the nicest guy around, but i would figure that because of his job, he supports a greater possibility of something happening that i would want to avoid. i would just try to schedule it next semester or get another section if there was an opening. but you a put a gun on someone in plain sight, and i would just be inviting trouble my way if i stayed in that class.

so i would just need to live with whatever the school's policy was, and then cancel classes accordingly if i got stuck in a situation that i was not willing to continue in.
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Old 01-21-2006, 10:29 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
the overwhelming thought by the average joe wanting to get an education is that there would not be guns in the classroom
And the average joe in the average American college wouldn't expect to see an albino either. Or conjoined twins. Does that mean that we should bar them from attending classes? I'll bet you that the average joe has never really given any thought to whether or not there will be weapons in the classroom---they go to get an education (or maybe just a degree)---not to get away from guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
personally, i think i would cancel my class if a uniformed policeman attended a class, even minus his weapons.
That's certainly your right and I have no problem with that. As long as you're making decisions for yourself---not the policeman or the other students---more power to you.
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Old 01-22-2006, 03:02 AM   #130
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hi amnesia,

that is a poor argument, and you know it.

albinos dont kill people, guns do.

i dont expect to see pink elephants, either. but some things can be harmful to us, while others not.

you made my point about others. i agree that they would not be thinking about whether guns are in the classroom, any more than they would be thinking that the students would be naked. we would all be expected to be informed that all the students would be naked. we typically dont get informed about the obvious or the expected.

i just dont think you have any sort of ground to argue on, so i am glad i am not on the debating team trying to argue your side, because i would understand that my ship was only gonna go down.

there is just no argument to my point about open weapons. it presents an extra danger to all that are there. if it was concealed, and he was not wearing a uniform of any sorts, so that he just looked like the average joe, i would not prefer it, but i would admit that he would not propose anywhere near the danger.

both msd and i have said, but it bears repeating. if said person needs to wear a gun for his protection, said person should not be placing others in danger, due to his situation. if society is so screwed up that we need to have special schools or sections of schools so that cops can further their education, then that is what we need to do. i am all for cops, cuz we do need a police system.

i am not a cop, so i may be wrong - but i do not believe that most cops are in danger off-duty, such that they need to carry weapons to a classroom. iwanta may have a different viewpoint about this, since he is a cop. all i can say is i hope i am not wrong about it.
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Old 01-22-2006, 07:49 AM   #131
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Gymeejet, you're mixing arguments. Guns don't kill people, guns are inanimate objects and/or tools used by people for several reasons including killing. As long as the firearm was concealed properly by the L.E.O. from the original post, then all but possibly one or two people who know the tell tale signs of concealed carry would have no idea that a firearm was any where around. Poor debating form by abandoning your topic for personal attacks (ship going down comment), trust me I did just this in a high school debate and to this day remember the poor grade that got me. Law enforcement officers are by the nature of their jobs targets for retribution by the nastiesof society. Should we consider removing L.E.O.s from general society due to this increased chance that innocent bystanders might be hurt by accident if someone might decide to attack an officer while off duty in general public? This is one of the reasons why many states require their officers to carry a firearm at all times, for their own protection and that of society.
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Old 01-22-2006, 10:00 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
albinos dont kill people, guns do.
I certainly wasn't using the "kill-people" analogy, because as jtbragg pointed out, guns don't kill people. It's not just a saying. (I was using the "unexpected and could cause attention" analogy.)

Are you really suggesting that having trained officer carry a gun in a classroom makes the class more dangerous? Do you think that bank security guards shouldn't carry guns either? What about airport security?
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Old 01-22-2006, 10:01 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondan
Heather I do understand what you are saying and I don't think you are wrong. What I do have a problem with is your thought
Quote:
Some crazy ass student could have gotten a hold of it and start shooting up the place.
A few years ago I watched an interview of a lady who was at the McDonalds when that crazy ass guy walked in with a gun and just started shooting people. She was a legally registered gun owner with a permit to carry. Since her and her parents were just going to go in and eat she decided just to leave her gun in her car. She said it was a decision she would regret for the rest of her life. This freak not only unloaded his gun but he then took a few seconds to reload and start shooting again. Can you tell me what would have happened if this woman had had her gun to be able to kill this guy when he was reloading?

You know, she will always regret not taking in her gun because just a few days later she buried her mother. Now what would you say if a crazy nut walked into that class with a gun, knife, box cutter, ball bat, or anything else and started going nutz?

I do agree that it is a little strange but it is not illegal so again why was he harrassed?

Why do people think they have the right to impose their will upon others? Gymeejet
Quote:
just yesterday on the news, someone shot someone else due to road rage. i wouldnt give you 2 cents for the intelligence and sensibility of lots of people. and to think of them carrying guns. no thanks.
Again what you are talking about is called "responsibility". Do not try and take my rights away because a few and I mean a very few nutz can't handle their own freedom. We have prisons for this. The further and further we get away from everyday people owning guns, the less and less people seem to want to protect their own rights. I put a quote up from Ben Franklin and not one person even responded to it? Why?
Signed,
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If that is who I think it was, that lady was eating at a Luby's (Cafeteria in Texas) when that nut drove his truck through the window and began to open fire. Her testimony was one of the reason Texans got the right to carry.

Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp
Killeen Texas Luby's Massacre Survivor
"The Second Amendment isn't about protecting ourselves against criminals. It's about all of us protecting ourselves from all of you."
-Dr. Suzanne Gratia, a survivor of the Killeen, Texas Luby's massacre, to Congressman Charles Schumer (D-NY), 1994

"Let me make a point here, in case this isn't becoming extremely clear. My state has gun control laws. It did not keep Hennard from coming in and killing everybody! What it did do, was keep me from protecting my family! That's the only thing that cotton pickin' law did! OK! Understand that! That's ...that's so important!"

-Dr. Suzanne Gratia, Killeen Texas Luby's massacre survivor


"Somewhere along the line I made one of my stupidest decisions... I was afraid that ... if ... somebody caught me with the gun in my purse, I could lose my license to practice, lose my ability to make a living. So I took the gun out of my purse and I left it in my car ... which the laws in my state are kinda wishy- washy on ...and I thought, 'Heck, if I needed it, it's probably going to be when I'm out on the road ... in the middle of nowhere and, you know, my car's broke down or something ..."

-Dr. Suzanne Gratia, Killeen Texas Luby's massacre survivor



I think that people fear guns not only because of what they can do, they fear them because they know nothing about them. They don’t know how to operate them properly so they fear them. There are some I bet that are afraid of cars for the same reasons, I have known people that will never drive because it scares them. I think that this fear is the same fear that people have when they have never been exposed to things so they develop a prejudice against it. It may not be overt but it there just the same. Having grown up in Baltimore I was not exposed to many Hispanics (none that I can remember before I was in the 7th grade) so I was uncomfortable around them when I first moved to Texas. After awhile I became more comfortable. I had a buddy that was a huge homophobe, he would make gay jokes from time to time and we would just look at him and shake our heads. We all became friends with a guy from work and it was only after hanging out with Walt and Walt’s subsequent coming out did Andy begin to shed his homophobe ways.

I have many friends that carry, and it does not make me feel uncomfortable at all. I know that they are not going to start shooting people. I feel safer walking around the worst areas of Dallas or Houston than I do the best areas of DC. This is because I know that law abiding citizens have the right to carry in Texas, and in DC where guns are outlawed only the criminals have guns.
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Old 01-22-2006, 10:15 AM   #134
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The more I read this thread the more it amazes me how people want to pick and choose the rights that they want for the rest of us. If you don't want a gun, don't get one.

In many states LEO have to carry even when they are off duty.
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Old 01-22-2006, 10:40 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msd2
Thank you for telling me how you feel. They do tell us all about during training, but, you never really understand it until you have been there. My point was only to show that LEO's are always the perfect person.

- I can understand, I have had much experience previously in working with trauma work and its true, its hard to explain what it is like until it is witnessed first hand. As far as LEO's being perfect, to error is human.

Actually, what I meant to say but mis-typed is, LEO's AREN'T perfect. I stated it in earlier posts and someone was distracting me while I responded.

As for the rest, I would take exception to you asking me to leave the class and here is why.

1. I am a sworn LEO. I am not just the average citizen coming to class with a hangun. I did not raise me hand and swear to enforce the laws in this ONLY while I am on duty. I don't know about other states, but in my state, I can arrest someone off-duty in plain clothes just like I am on duty in uniform.

- Thats great but how is anyone else to know this if you just come to class in regular street cloths with your gun attached to your side?

Agreed, I don't think that walking into a class with a gun exposed and no ID showing is proper. I stated this in earlier posts. But not because I felt it was a distraction. I feel it leaves him or her to open for attack.

Also, maybe I have a problem and need to be armed at all times. Maybe a threat for a person I have arrested. Maybe a violent person I arrested attends your University. Again, I cannot speak of the laws in other states, but in mine, I CAN carry a firearm on ANY school campus.

- If this is the case maybe you should seriously consider other options, why would you as an officer put yourself in a possibly hostile situation where innocent bystanders could be harmed. If your on-duty nobody will have a problem with you carrying a firearm.

Interesting point. What your saying is, because I want to get a degree at a certain University, and someone else wants a degree at the same place, and I, in the course of employment, arrested this person for a violent act, that I would have to be the person who adjusts? Why can't they be the person who doesn't attend? I am just doing the job I was hired to do and I am attempting to further my education. But, because THEY decided to something (threaten me and attend the same University) I now have to accomidate them?

With this in mind, I am not sure if I could be refused permission to attend the class.

How about if my Agency paid me to attend yuor class as part of my training and the Agency ordered me to attend in uniform. Would I still be refused permission to the class?

-Yes in the classes that I teach it would not matter to me who pays for the course. If this is a room full of officers that is a different situation and obviously it would be a moot point and permission is implicit. But in a regular class you said yourself it is unwise to show up in uniform to be a target, so if that is the case maybe a safer option is available for everyone involved. I could be convinced as a professor if you were in uniform to probably to stay if you elected to not bring in your weapons, night stick, cuffs etc.

Actually what I said was, that it wasn't wise in plain clothes, wth the gun exposed and no ID. In uniform, I have no problem. In fact, my department policy states that I would not be able to attend in uniform without those items (cuffs, nightstick). Do you really expect me to walk around a school campus in a uniform without a gun or cuffs? That would subject me and everyone to a far greater degree of danger than if I had the gun.

What happens if you took a chance and let me sit there and there wasn't any distraction? What happens if no one noticed? Would I still be required to leave your class because YOU have a problem with the gun??

- I wouldnt take that chance, and your example of when you went to pick up your daughter is testament to the fact ppl will and do notice. If the student did NOT expose his gun and was in normal attire the problem would be no existant. And yes you would still be asked to leave, it would be distracting to me as a professor and I have an obligation to enstill as much knowledge to my students as possible. Ironically, I don't have a problem with guns, I own several, but I only bring them to an appropriate location. What I DO have a problem with is him bring it to my class because it serves no purpose.

It does serve a purpose, it protects ME !

As for the disruption, that I can't really comment on. But, I can see your point. My question is, how far does the distraction have to go before someone cannot attend your class? Who makes the determination as to what a distraction is?

-Like every other situation it requires judgement, same as you on the job you decide the amount of force necessary to apply to a situation. Since this is my classroom in which I am responsible for I make the decision utlimately. You use your professional judgement and I use mine.

Agreed

If I come in your class with a Turban on and someone inthe class object, is that enough?

-Clearly not and these are two very different situations, one is a religious/cultural belief, the other because you want to. I have never heard of anyone being afraid of a turban accidentally going off and killing someone. Meaning since I control the classroom and judge it to be an irrational fear that a majority of people would not be uncomfortable with you, (the person afraid of turbans) are free to look for another section.

There wasn't a hysteria right after 9/11 for Middle eastern males? We had people denied boarding on planes because someone had a PROBLEM with them. Happened lots of times. And what happened? We accomidate the uncomfortable person making the noise instead of the quiet person who is just going about his bussiness. I personaly think that if someone has a problem with someone else's appearence, then it their problem. We to many times force people who might be offending to change because someone else doesn't like what they repersent. The squeeky wheel gets the grease, right? Doesn't that go against the very nature of the First Adm.?

How about if someone doesn't want a Asian person in the class because they feel they are too "disruptive"? I guess what I am asking is, how far will it go because one person or several people feel distracted by this?

- Of course you realize the obsurdity of your logic, and I understand the point you are attempting to make, but someone does not choose their race and in a civilized society we make certain comprimises with our own personal likes/dislikes for the society at large. If you dont like Asian ppl then don't attend my class if asian ppl are present. I am not here to impress my desires onto you, and I expect the same of you. You, as a student are making a conscious decision to attend, nobody is forcing you to. If you cannot comply with what is required you need to find another lecturer that is sympathetic to your plight, or simply comply with what is requested. We all need to at times set aside our own personal wants to attain ultimate goals.

I agree that carring it open with no ID can be somewhat concerning in a classroom setting. But, if the situation required having the weapon, would they still be able to attend?

- I can't think of any situation that would require him to have a weapon during my class. If he is in that much danger of being attacked he should seriously consider why he is putting so many other innocent people in danger and come up with other viable options. Such as courses online.

What happens if they aren't online? How far does one have to go to accomidate another merely because another finds his actions or appearence offense ?

I am not trying to come down hard on you here. I am merely stating a position that I feel is justified. I am allowed to carry it, I might be required to carry it and if YOU don't let me in the class, aren't you depriving me of something I paid for for doing nothing legelly wrong?

- First the point is your not allowed to unless you are on duty to carry a weapon onto campus. If the issue is that pressing for you the solution is simple keep it stowed in your backpack and out of sight. Nobody would be the wiser. Would I prefer this no, but I strongly prefer it to someone walking around campus with a gun exposed. Second you are denying yourself to attend the class, you are not meeting the requirements set forth to attend. People are denied classes all the time, if you dont meet the prereq's you simply cannot attend. If you stated to the regestrar you intend on bringing a gun onto campus she would not register you for the class. My first and foremost job is to give my students a learning enviroment to attain as much knowledge as possible in as comfortable and condusive learning enviroment as reasonably possible. By this student coming in carrying a firearm for no appearent reason he is adversely affecting my primary job and depriving fellow students of the best possible learning enviroment I can provide. This is the same response if a student came into my class with raver gear on, lights flashing, and all that. I would ask them to either show up appropriate for class or find another section. As I stated before you can try to find another section, or get a refund for the class. Nowhere does it state that because you paid for something that if you cannot comply with the classes requirements prior to enrollement that you must be allowed to stay.
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Ok. Let me ask this then, what happens if every student in class didn't have problem with it? What happens if you asked and they all said, we don't mind? Would I still be allowed to stay?

Also, I have stated a reason for having a gun, its required by my agency policy that I have it at ALL TIMES. That means if I am caught without it, I can be fired. My agency also states that I have to have it on MY PERSON and I am not allowed to stow it anywhere. I guess I am faced with a problem now. Do I not tell anyone and hope its not seen out of fear of having to leave the class, or should I be honest and let the chips fall where they may?

I can understand why it would make you uncomfortable if you saw a gun and didn't know why the person had it. I don't blame you for asking them why they had it or who they are. Where I have the problem is, that once you discover the person is a LEO, it doesn't matter. I don't think that all LEO's should be able to do what they want. I just think that if the law allows them the exception, why can't you ?

What I am getting here is, if you don't agree with something in the classroom then they can't attend. If you feel that it doesn't belong or doesn't serve a purpose then you are going to have it removed. Thats fine if thats how you feel. Where I take the exception is, you don't allow someone in your class because YOU have a problem. Not because everyone in the class does.
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