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Old 01-23-2007, 11:56 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
That arrogance is the basis of all language and science. Of all human thought. It is the assumption that what we think, perceive, and communicate is actually reality.
I see. So if I don't assume that what I think, perceive or communicte is actual reality, then paradoxes all go away? Even though my thoughts are real thoughts, existing in "actual reality"?

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Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
If logic results in a paradox, wouldn't logic suggest that something, the facts, the circumstances, the reasoning, or the conclusions, were incorrect?
That's what everyone thought until Gödel. He showed that everyone was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
Many paradox were conceived to illustrate precisely that point. The Schrödinger's cat though experiment is an example that comes to mind.
Agreed. That doesn't imply that paradoxes don't exist.

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Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
You allow a self-confessed liar to define a fact for you.
No. There is no liar in the statement "This statement is a lie", there's just a statement. The statement is a paradox.

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Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
If I said I was a god, would you believe me? Since I am not saying I'm a liar, I should be that much more believable.
Huh?

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Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
I am not hostile to paradox. I posted earlier that I thought it was harmless.
You keep saying they don't exist in language that comes across as hostile, as if the existence of paradoxes was problematic or threatening.

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Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
I skimmed those links you provided. Did you notice this?

Doesn't that basically suggest that, since a 'metalanguage' is often required to resolve a paradox, that the language itself is either the source or inadequate to deal with paradox, or both.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
That website doesn't even go farther than 'appears'. Not a very convincing proof of your argument, I would say.
All of the paradoxes listed there exist. That was the original question. I showed them to you to show they have nothing to do with "intellectual arrogance", but since you seem to consider all human activity intellectually arrogant, I can't really argue with you on that.
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:50 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by memebag
I see. So if I don't assume that what I think, perceive or communicte is actual reality, then paradoxes all go away? Even though my thoughts are real thoughts, existing in "actual reality"?

That's what everyone thought until Gödel. He showed that everyone was wrong.

Agreed. That doesn't imply that paradoxes don't exist.

No. There is no liar in the statement "This statement is a lie", there's just a statement. The statement is a paradox.

Huh?

You keep saying they don't exist in language that comes across as hostile, as if the existence of paradoxes was problematic or threatening.

Yes.

All of the paradoxes listed there exist. That was the original question. I showed them to you to show they have nothing to do with "intellectual arrogance", but since you seem to consider all human activity intellectually arrogant, I can't really argue with you on that.
What a childish, argumentative statement! Your thoughts are real to you, as mine are to me, but I have no way of knowing yours or you mine, except through the limited conduit of communication, thus, I honestly have no idea if you exist and you can't honestly state I exist, except by trusting our perceptions. The problem is our perceptions are limited. We can't see or understand everything, so we have to inconify reality and hope we are close. I think this is mostly what growth and development is all about.

Did you read that wiki? It basically says what I have been saying, only it applies it to mathematical theory and theorum. BTW, it is not a paradox, although the simplified, lay version does read like one.

It strongly implies that they don't exist.

One who knowingly makes a false statement is a liar. You should read that 'Liar Paradox' link.

You are willing to accept a hypothetical statement that basically admits a lie. You should be even more willing to accept a statement that doesn't hint at being a lie.

Hostile? I don't get that. I used the word 'harmless'. Can you get any farther away from 'threatening'? As for 'problematic', you'll have to be more specific, but I don't think so.

No comment on the 'metalanguage' thing?

Saying I consider all intellectual activity to be arrogance is like saying I consider pizza to be all crust. I don't. I consider arrogance to be a basic, underlying foundation that supports human perception, communication, and thought. You can call it faith, if you want, or absolute trust.

We apply the name, the label 'paradox' to a collection of words that ultimately nullify themselves. If I say 'faster than light', that doesn't mean that this statement, that I can mathematically and precisely define, is a meaningful statement. That which 'paradox' refers to really doesn't exist. The examples are all exercises in absurdity, usually fueled by imprecise language or erroneous logic.
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:09 PM   #18
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hi cr,

that is what i usually tell people when i hear that "can god make a rock that he can not lift". boy, that one is really tiring to me.
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:16 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
What a childish, argumentative statement!
I was paraphrasing Principia Discordia and trying to get you to recognize the distinction between the reality of logic and the confusion of "eating the menu". You seem to be confusing those. Please try to avoid personal attacks.
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:41 PM   #20
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the egg came first.
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:58 PM   #21
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no, the chicken. LOL.
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Old 01-24-2007, 10:44 AM   #22
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A self replicating protein structure came first.
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:32 AM   #23
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actually, i really think there could be an answer to that one. all animals have evolutionary changes. the fact that one lays an egg today, does not mean that they always laid eggs for their young.

so the question remains as to how did the first chicken start. we dont know the answer to that any more than we know how the first human started.

we know that life forms developed from less complex life forms, etc.
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:38 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag
I was paraphrasing Principia Discordia and trying to get you to recognize the distinction between the reality of logic and the confusion of "eating the menu". You seem to be confusing those. Please try to avoid personal attacks.
Responding to the last first, I think one could argue that calling a statement childish is not a personal attack on the person who made the statement. Had I said something like 'only an immature jerk would have said something like that!', that would have been a personal attack. My problem was with the post, not the poster.

I think we have been arguing at cross purposes. To analogize, I have been arguing that ducks don't really talk, and you have been saying "what about Daffy, Donald, and that duck in the AFLAC commercials?!"
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Old 01-24-2007, 01:28 PM   #25
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Agggh Flllaaaaccckk
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Old 01-24-2007, 02:18 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag
No. There is no liar in the statement "This statement is a lie", there's just a statement. The statement is a paradox.

There cannot "just be a statement" someone has to make it or it wouldn't exist. Whoever gives the statement is admiting that what they are saying is a lie, therefore they are a liar.

If Godel proves a situation via therom, then it is not a paradox. If you can prove A equals and also does not equal A at the same time, then it is not a paradox, it's a proof. It's complex and hard to prove other than through mathematics, but it has been solved. There is no longer a conflict.
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Old 01-24-2007, 02:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Elahrairah
There cannot "just be a statement" someone has to make it or it wouldn't exist. Whoever gives the statement is admiting that what they are saying is a lie, therefore they are a liar.
Huh? Which formal logic requires that every statement have a human attached to it?

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Originally Posted by Elahrairah
If Godel proves a situation via therom, then it is not a paradox. If you can prove A equals and also does not equal A at the same time, then it is not a paradox, it's a proof. It's complex and hard to prove other than through mathematics, but it has been solved. There is no longer a conflict.
You haven't read Gödel's theorem, have you? He proved that there is always a conflict in any formal system rich enough to express basic arithmetic. If A doesn't equal A then you have a paradox of the same form as "this statement is a lie".
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Old 01-24-2007, 03:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag
Huh? Which formal logic requires that every statement have a human attached to it?



You haven't read Gödel's theorem, have you? He proved that there is always a conflict in any formal system rich enough to express basic arithmetic. If A doesn't equal A then you have a paradox of the same form as "this statement is a lie".

Ok, no logic requires a human attached to it, but something caused the statement to exist. A statement is an expression of an idea, they don't just exist out of thin air. Please show one instance of this occuring without anything being the root cause. If you assume things can occur without cause, then your assumption is the key to the flawed paradox (you're basically throwing "God" in as the cure-all).

Also, if Godel PROVED anything, then there is no paradox, even if he proved a conflict, it is not a pradoxal conflict, simply a + and - occuring at the same time. Unless you are admiting he didn't prove anything.
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Old 01-24-2007, 04:13 PM   #29
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Ok, no logic requires a human attached to it, but something caused the statement to exist. A statement is an expression of an idea, they don't just exist out of thin air. Please show one instance of this occuring without anything being the root cause. If you assume things can occur without cause, then your assumption is the key to the flawed paradox (you're basically throwing "God" in as the cure-all).
The "cause" doesn't matter. The statement itself is a paradox. If it is true, then it is false. If it is false, then it is true. It doesn't matter how you get there, it's still a paradox.

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Also, if Godel PROVED anything, then there is no paradox, even if he proved a conflict, it is not a pradoxal conflict, simply a + and - occuring at the same time. Unless you are admiting he didn't prove anything.
You say that if Gödel proved there is a paradox then there is no paradox and you think paradoxes don't exist? You're trying to use one to disprove them.

Why shouldn't paradoxes exist? Where's all this resistance to paradox coming from?
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Old 01-24-2007, 04:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by memebag
The "cause" doesn't matter. The statement itself is a paradox. If it is true, then it is false. If it is false, then it is true. It doesn't matter how you get there, it's still a paradox.



You say that if Gödel proved there is a paradox then there is no paradox and you think paradoxes don't exist? You're trying to use one to disprove them.

Why shouldn't paradoxes exist? Where's all this resistance to paradox coming from?


You are saying "If" it is true, then it is false.....big "If" there.

No, I am saying if Godel proved that A can sometimes (or always) not equal A, then he proved a mathematical/logical equation, therefore, instances where A do not equal A are no longer paradoxes, just wierd-ass situations...

As far as why they shouldn't exist I simply feel that we are creating them ourselves and our lack of understanding is what keeps us from explaining them. A drive to rid the universe of a paradox should be paramount to any underlying dream to learn more. Hell, at one time, the concept of long division was a paradox to me (how can a 3 go into a 9? damn does that mean a sandwich can go into a carrot?).

Trust me, I'm as confused about them as anyone, I don't claim to have the answer, nor do I claim I will ever come close to having the mindset to even come up with some possible answers, I just know in the back of head that there is an answer to all riddles somewhere....

I am not trying to resist them in any true argumentative way, just trying to ask "why"?

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