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Old 01-24-2007, 04:49 PM   #31
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And finally the thread got interesting.
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Old 01-24-2007, 04:57 PM   #32
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Things that make a statement, but aren't human:

God.

Fashion.

Angry ducks.
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Old 01-24-2007, 05:02 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elahrairah
You are saying "If" it is true, then it is false.....big "If" there.
No, it's a little "if". If it isn't true, then it's false. Either way it's a paradox.

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Originally Posted by Elahrairah
No, I am saying if Godel proved that A can sometimes (or always) not equal A, then he proved a mathematical/logical equation, therefore, instances where A do not equal A are no longer paradoxes, just wierd-ass situations...
Why is this "weird-ass situation" not a paradox? Are you assuming that proof and paradox are mutually exclusive? If so, you're wrong. That's what Gödel proved. Every formal system of logic that can represent basic arithmetic contains a provably true statement that another statement is equivalent to its negation. I think you ought to read his paper or one of the many published explanations of it.

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Originally Posted by Elahrairah
As far as why they shouldn't exist I simply feel that we are creating them ourselves and our lack of understanding is what keeps us from explaining them. A drive to rid the universe of a paradox should be paramount to any underlying dream to learn more. Hell, at one time, the concept of long division was a paradox to me (how can a 3 go into a 9? damn does that mean a sandwich can go into a carrot?).
Gödel showed that they are a property of logic itself, not the result of a flaw in our logic or our understanding. You can't rid the universe of paradox and keep logic.

Why do you think paradoxes are keeping us from learning more?

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Originally Posted by Elahrairah
Trust me, I'm as confused about them as anyone, I don't claim to have the answer, nor do I claim I will ever come close to having the mindset to even come up with some possible answers, I just know in the back of head that there is an answer to all riddles somewhere....
Nope. Some problems aren't solvable. That's been proven, too.

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Originally Posted by Elahrairah
I am not trying to resist them in any true argumentative way, just trying to ask "why"?
You asked if they existed. I gave some examples and you rejected them. That comes across as resisting them.
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Old 01-24-2007, 05:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag
No, it's a little "if". If it isn't true, then it's false. Either way it's a paradox.



Why is this "weird-ass situation" not a paradox? Are you assuming that proof and paradox are mutually exclusive? If so, you're wrong. That's what Gödel proved. Every formal system of logic that can represent basic arithmetic contains a provably true statement that another statement is equivalent to its negation. I think you ought to read his paper or one of the many published explanations of it.



Gödel showed that they are a property of logic itself, not the result of a flaw in our logic or our understanding. You can't rid the universe of paradox and keep logic.

Why do you think paradoxes are keeping us from learning more?



Nope. Some problems aren't solvable. That's been proven, too.



You asked if they existed. I gave some examples and you rejected them. That comes across as resisting them.


Sorry for the reisistance....

It is a big "If". What is your proof that the statement is correct in the first place? By accepting the statement at it's face value, you are making an assumption that leads to a conclusion. Never assume.

A paradox with a proof is no longer a paradox, more like a complex equation. If the unsolvable has been solved, then it is no longer unsolveable.

"Some problems aren't solveable, and that's been proven?"

They aren't solveable NOW, but someday, 1000's of years from now, they may be...at least I haven't given up hope yet. To say that it's been proven they cannot be solved is jumping the gun just a bit. There must be a flaw in that "proof"

Last edited by Elahrairah; 01-24-2007 at 05:53 PM..
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Old 01-24-2007, 05:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn Ramius
Things that make a statement, but aren't human:

God.

Fashion.

Angry ducks.

Yet humans made the first two and ducks are just humans with less DNA development....
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Old 01-24-2007, 05:57 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elahrairah
It is a big "If". What is your proof that the statement is correct in the first place? By accepting the statement at it's face value, you are making an assumption that leads to a conclusion. Never assume.
You don't need proof that it's "correct". You can assume it's correct or incorrect, it produces the same paradox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elahrairah
A paradox with a proof is no longer a paradox, more like a complex equation. If the unsolvable has been solved, then it is no longer unsolveable.
Where are you getting this from? Gödel didn't prove a paradox, he proved that paradoxes have to exist in all non-trivial and complete formal logic systems. Please go read his proof. It will blow your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elahrairah
"Some problems aren't solveable, and that's been proven?"

They aren't solveable NOW, but someday, 1000's of years from now, they may be...at least I haven't given up hope yet. To say that it's been proven they cannot be solved is jumping the gun just a bit.
No, there are problems that have been proven to be unsolvable. It isn't jumping the gun, it's math. I recommend you do some reading on the subject. Start with Hilbert's 23 problems, move on to the Halting Problem. You don't have to figure this out on your own. Some very bright people have done a lot of work already.
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Old 01-24-2007, 07:52 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elahrairah
No, I'm not trying to cause one by asking....I'm serious.

I was just told of the paradox of the "Town where everyone tells the truth"....

You walk into a town where everyone tells the truth. Someone comes up to you and says "I'm Lying"......instant paradox...

I say, no way, where is the proof this town has no liars? I am told I must simply accept it as fact.....there is the answer to the paradox, accepting as fact what isn't known or proven and using that to base a conclusion...paradox solved. The answer? You're an idiot for thinking nobody can lie in that town.

Another example: This was in a letter to National Geographic magazine a couple of months back....

Someone wrote in saying something along the lines of: "I love it when scientists scratch their heads trying to understand the meaning of life, I have always had the answer, God."

No, I am not trying to start a "is there a God thing again"....but how can you accept an answer with no evidence, yet, put down those that don't understand but try to find an answer?

I mean, his same response can be used for finding out the Earth wasn't the center of the universe....before we knew the truth, we thought we knew the truth...."I always knew the Earth was the center of the universe, until someone showed me that it wasn't"

I say all paradox's are really misunderstandings....we are not smart enough for the answer....so we assume paradox...and using God as a band-aid answer isn't good enough.

Don't start with the "Can god make a rock he can't lift?" response. Of course he can, until he proves he can't.
I used to think about this kind of stuff all the time when was smoking pot on a daily basis. Then I would think of tastykakes and I would smoke more pot and forget the questions.

A long time ago i figured out that some questions just can't be answered one way or the other. Like the god question. so I decided that until they can be answered with indisputable, tangible facts they just aren't relevant and any debate about them was totally fruitless.

Also when in doubt go with Occam's razor. It makes sleeping much easier

Last edited by Fergz99; 01-24-2007 at 08:16 PM..
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:53 AM   #38
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Quote:
Then I would think of tastykakes and I would smoke more pot and forget the questions.
Nutter butters make the world go around. So do Sour Cream and Chive potato chops and Little Debbie Peanut Butter thingies, Nutty Bars.
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